The Elder Scrolls RPG

[Jhaelen]

and about 8 times out of 10 you were better off building a custom class than picking one of the defaults.

Absolutely! Actually, that's true for anything in the game allowing you to customize it. Why? Because there isn't any point-based system that cannot be broken in some way, especially in a computer game.

I was hitting the Jump key every second step, because jumping trained Athletics and Athletics made you run faster.

Ha! I had all but forgotten about this, but, yes, that's exactly what I'd been doing

but because you were gaining levels without advancing your combat skills, you'd die to the first random bunch of critters you encountered outside town.

I fell for the same design trap. Basically, I wrongly believed it was a good idea to pick class skills that were particularly easy to advance quickly. I should have done the opposite, because the random mobs became unbeatable pretty fast.

 

[GMMichael]

TES skill/leveling system leds to stupid behavior like standing there flogging your demon horse for an hour.

This is pretty frickin' funny!

Interesting points about the levels and classes. Classes determine what skills affect level growth, and if you pick the wrong skills, the "scaling" enemies will wipe their asses with your scalp. My "woodsman" Oblivion character is starting to run into this problem, and I haven't even found the emperor's heir yet!

So the Elder Scrolls RPG is better off classless, or point-buy? Or maybe classes are fine, but like in the old D&D days, you take an XP penalty for being too generalist? It might be good, flavor-wise, to take the names of TES classes and bestow them upon your PCs who didn't have a preference. So maybe the "fighter" is better called a "knight" or "warrior."

I just saw Combat, Magic, and Stealth pop up as class foci. This was in Morrowind, but Skyrim does the same thing with the first three Guardian Stones. Can these be used in an RPG, or are they too server-side or back-end, in terms of the video game systems?

 

[MarkB]

So the Elder Scrolls RPG is better off classless, or point-buy? Or maybe classes are fine, but like in the old D&D days, you take an XP penalty for being too generalist? It might be good, flavor-wise, to take the names of TES classes and bestow them upon your PCs who didn't have a preference. So maybe the "fighter" is better called a "knight" or "warrior."

I'd probably go with something classless and skill-based, like FATE or Cthulhu. But not purely skill-based - the perks you can unlock in Skyrim as you get better at certain skills are a really neat concept that helps to customise the character. FATE's stunts and extras cover that, but you don't get a lot of them.

I just saw Combat, Magic, and Stealth pop up as class foci. This was in Morrowind, but Skyrim does the same thing with the first three Guardian Stones. Can these be used in an RPG, or are they too server-side or back-end, in terms of the video game systems?

There's nothing difficult about adding a focus in one of these areas - you just divide the skills by category, and add some sort of benefit to using or progressing skills from the chosen category.

One of the neat things that sets the Elder Scrolls games apart is that magic is treated very much as something anyone can do. A character starts off with a handful of known spells, and whilst he may never choose to use them or advance his magical talents, they're always available. Magic should definitely be treated as simply a part of the character's potential skill-set, rather than something only available to specially gifted individuals.

 

[GMMichael]

There's nothing difficult about adding a focus in one of these areas - you just divide the skills by category, and add some sort of benefit to using or progressing skills from the chosen category.

One of the neat things that sets the Elder Scrolls games apart is that magic is treated very much as something anyone can do. . .Magic should definitely be treated as simply a part of the character's potential skill-set, rather than something only available to specially gifted individuals.

Interestingly, TES seem to point slightly away from D&D in the foci respect. Three classes in ESO, three standing stones at the beginning of Skyrim, three skill sets in the earlier games...
It's like Elder Scrolls refuse to recognize the Cleric. Ironic for me, since I've decided that my latest Skyrim character should be a cleric.

While I'm not sure if you'd lose an Elder Scrolls feel by making magic unique to certain groups (Mages' Guild?), it's decidedly true that TES allows every PC to have a healing spell and more...

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

If you want an rpg system that can mimic the skills of most ES games, than Runequest (BRP) is probably your best bet. It's pretty much exactly what you are asking for. Another game that could do it well is Gurps.

 

[cimbrog]

If I remember correctly, when they were making Daggerfall the developers had a pen and paper version of the game they played that was a heavily modified version of BRP. Daggerfall is light years away from Skyrim, though...

Another thing to consider is the change in how combat is handled between the Morrowind/Oblivion split. In the earlier games your weapon skills determined your chance to hit with an attack. In the later games your skills determine how much damage/what nifty moves you could pull off and whether you hit or not is based on the actual player's hand-eye coordination.

One way to get a more modern TES feeling would be for everyone to advance in their chance to hit by level equally, ala D&D4e, and have the weapon skills used for maximizing damage potential and unlocking perks/maneuvers. For example, instead of rolling for damage, each weapon has a static maximum amount of damage it can do and your weapon skill (1-100) determines what percent of that maximum damage you do.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the green bar, fatigue, which has been present since at least Daggerfall. While it probably would be too cumbersome to have players track scores of 100+ points throughout combat, it might make for a good way to add an action economy to those combat maneuvers. Something like each player having up to five Stamina markers (represented by glass beads, M&Ms, etc) that replenish at 1 per round and various attacks take up one or more Stamina. Running and other exertions would also use up stamina tokens.

 

[MarkB]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the green bar, fatigue, which has been present since at least Daggerfall. While it probably would be too cumbersome to have players track scores of 100+ points throughout combat, it might make for a good way to add an action economy to those combat maneuvers. Something like each player having up to five Stamina markers (represented by glass beads, M&Ms, etc) that replenish at 1 per round and various attacks take up one or more Stamina. Running and other exertions would also use up stamina tokens.

Good catch on the stamina, and I like your suggested implementation. It could make for a nice way to differentiate between larger, more cumbersome weapons and smaller, less-damaging ones while still using a turn-based combat system - big weapons' special attacks require more stamina than small ones.

You could also make it a defensive resource - you can attempt to block an attack with a shield or weapon, perhaps forcing a re-roll or turning a special attack into a normal hit, but doing so costs you a stamina point.

 

[pollico]

Skill based sistem, skills develops with use, everybody can use magic, no strict classes, various factions open world, the lore. That's all that truly says Elder Scrolls to me.

The rest of things are simply added stuff. Stamina? Using defenses actively or passively? Repairing stuff? I can't see how this creates an experience more faithfull to the originals. All of that can be ok, but neccessary?
And remember: lots of the game's characteristic traits are related to their's media, and might not be desirable in a PaP game.

 

[cimbrog]

The original question and followups indicate that he's mostly interested in simulating those characteristics that are inherited from the media, though.

If I had my druthers, I'd use some loose story-game system and run a LSD-binge inspired lorewank with time travelling robots, Imperial space stations, mythopoeic heroes and enough CHIM to break my player's brains all culminating with Landfall when Big Stompy gets jiggy with Nirn. Then things get really weird.

 

[GMMichael]

If I remember correctly, when they were making Daggerfall the developers had a pen and paper version of the game they played that was a heavily modified version of BRP. Daggerfall is light years away from Skyrim, though...

Light years, yes. But pretty cool to know what might have been the grandpa-system that spawned cooler games later.

One way to get a more modern TES feeling would be for everyone to advance in their chance to hit by level equally, ala D&D4e, and have the weapon skills used for maximizing damage potential and unlocking perks/maneuvers. . . and your weapon skill (1-100) determines what percent of that maximum damage you do.

Good point, but it looks very D&D-centric. Some game systems might not recognize such a divide between accuracy and damage. Did you watch Titansgrave? I think a 12 was all you needed to hit just about anything...but your comment points at this, for me: is there a clear divide between the attacks of someone with no skill with a particular weapon, and a master of that weapon? And I think this type of feature is pretty common amongst RPGs.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the green bar, fatigue, which has been present since at least Daggerfall. While it probably would be too cumbersome to have players track scores of 100+ points throughout combat, it might make for a good way to add an action economy

How could I overlook this? Stamatigue! My Oblivion character looked like a complete drunk, constantly falling over in front of a bandit, simply because that bandit's weapon was draining his stamina to zero. Annoying, but pretty dang funny.

Does your game system have an exhaustion rule? A limit to special moves? A number of action points that come back over time? On the other hand, isn't the stamina system just a way to keep you from power-attacking non-stop?

Stamina? Using defenses actively or passively? Repairing stuff? . . .
And remember: lots of the game's characteristic traits are related to their's media, and might not be desirable in a PaP game.

Pollico, it's the little things that make the difference. Any game can be based in Cyrodiil. But a game that ignores stamina, defenses, and crafting is going to feel less TES than one that doesn't. You're right about the medium though: TES is a video game, so it can't be easily ported to a tabletop without minding the details.