The Elements, Energy types and Aristotle's cosmological system

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Okay I akm going to ressurect this thread because it is very interesting (even EN himself posted to it).

The Quotes below (edited of all OT material) is a conglomeration of thoughtsa from different posters on the 'Physics' and Cosmological system upon which DnD is predicated - please add your ideas...

Fusangite
I find it curious that D&D uses the four Aristotelian elements but does not use the rest of Aristotle's cosmological system. The idea of the five elements - Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Aether/Quintessence, the harmony of the spheres, etc. is fodder for some quite interesting discussion. In particular, it raises the question of what the natural philosophy of D&D is -- what the basic rules of physics, etc. are in the universe. Do we have the four qualities as well as the four elements? Are the outer planes made of the four elements or of the quintessence/aether? What are the implications of the D&D ethereal plane being coterminous with the ordinary world?

Given that Alchemy, Knowledge-Arcana, Knowledge-Planes, etc. are knowledge skills, I'd like to be able to give theoretical as well as practical answers to questions asked using these skills. The fact that falling damage increases linearly rather than exponentially suggests that the D&D universe may operate with Aristotelian rather than Newtonian physics.

Has anyone given any thought to the rules of physics, alchemy, optics, etc. in the D&D world or indeed in any other fantasy world? Do we still run our worlds by Newtonian rules with a long list of exceptions or do we more fully embrace the Aristotelian universe?
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EricNoah

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I would love an article or something maybe more substantial that delves into the issue of elements and the other forces that make spells happen, and also appropriate defenses for each kind of element/force. Kind of a rock-paper-scissors effect.

For instance, we have spells that do "force" damage, and there often is no defense against them (magic missiles). But sometimes there is (a shield spell). Similarly, we have spells that do fire, acid, cold, and electrical damage and there seem to be many spells and creatures that have varying amounts of resistance to these. But you rarely see a sonic-resistant creature. So is sonic "more valuable" or "more rare" than the others? And how do negative and positive energy all play into it? And what about psionic powers that do "damage" that's not of any specific type (concussion comes to mind)? I personally think all damaging spells should be of some element, energy, or force and not just some nebulous "damage" that can't be defended against.

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Cheiromancer
I've run into the theory that there are really only three elements- Fire, Air and Water. But not earth.

Which kind of makes sense- there are archetypes of the Big Three- the "purest" fire is hot, bright and smokeless (and probably blue)- fresh air and pure rain water are the archetypes for the other two.

But there is no archetype of earth- there are dozens of different kinds of crystals, metals and minerals, not to mention all the different kinds of soil and clay. In other words, earth doesn't have a "pure" elemental form- it is a composite.

If I were to associate the different forms of energy with the Three Elements, this is how I would do it:

Fire: fire and electricity
Water: acid and cold
Air: sonic and force

Fire gets the "luminous" energies. Water is the best common solvent, so it makes sense to associate it with acid. And it sucks up heat very well, which seems appropriate to cold. Air is the subtle and invisible element, the one corresponding to pressure (force) and waves of pressure (sound).

Earth is a mixture of elements. Certain proportions of elemental mixtures "resonate" with the planets, and these are the astrological metals: silver, mercury, copper, gold, iron, tin and lead (for the moon, mercury, venus, the sun, mars, jupiter and saturn, respectively). Other materials might be linked to certain constellations. I'm not sure.

tleilaxu

let's see....

lightning
acid
fire
ice
sonic
positive
negative
divine
force

i nominate

time/gravity as another
i think arcane is ok....

edit: forgot slashing, piercing and bludgeoning, which are all subsets of
physical

how about
'kinetic'
 
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(Removed: cranky post regarding similarity to a closed thread, and unclear attribution of quotes)

I'm in a happy mood again. :D
 
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Look, I think the subject is fascinating, and there is nothing wrong with talking about the various elements and their relation to magic and use in spells, etc. . .

However, the original thread was closed because the author used it as a forum to question the actions of a mod in regards to his breaking our rules. (I don't know exactly what the problem was becaise I never read the original thread, but that doesn't matter).

I have no problem with this thread staying open as long as it remains about the elements of magic and not about why threads are closed or moved or deleted.

Okay?

Good.

That's the end of that that.

You may continue.
 

Heh, and then while futzing around with the previous thread I accidentally wiped it out. Good thing the relevant parts are quoted above! All in all, not the best string of events for the admins/mods tonight. But we try! And now for something completely different ...

Elements!

I am playing a sonic-substituting half-orc wizard. I've heard people complain that sonic-substituting is kind of munchkiny. My guess is that it's because, as I cite above, there are few monsters with natural sonic immunity or resistance? Is there another reason?

I have to admit though that it is very fun slinging sonic balls and sonic scorchers and "sonic hands" and so forth...
 
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EricNoah said:
I have to admit though that it is very fun slinging sonic balls and sonic scorchers and "sonic hands" and so forth...

I think its even better when you visualize all the effects as sounding like a really loud "WOOOOONK!"


It would be interesting to somehow link those five elements to the platonic solid said to be their shape, for example, the dodecahedron for quintessence or the cube for earth.
 

Sagiro emailed me this the other day, explaining why sonic attacks work. It's incredibly cool.

(from an article on sonic refrigeration technology)

"...Humans feel pain when they hear sounds of 120 decibels, a level typically reached next to the speakers at a rock concert.

The sounds pumped through the Penn State fridge reach 173 dB, tens of thousands of times more intense than any rock concert.

Sounds of 165 dB would cause a person's hair to catch fire from the frictional heating caused by air undergoing such intense compression and expansion."
Whoa.
 

tleilaxu fondly remembers the techno parties he went to back in the nineties. one would often see a spaced out person hugging the gigantic speakers, probably permenantly damaging their hearing.

now that's sonic damage!

ahh the memories....
 

This might be kind of off-topic, but I was thinking the other day that if dragons were re-done in 3E, it might be better up to match the 5 energy types to the 5 chromatic dragon breath weapons. It fits the cosmology a little better.

I guess I'd do it this way:

Red - Fire
Blue - Sonic
White - Cold
Black - Lightning
Green - Acid
 

This is responding to that first quote about the five Aristotilian elements.

The fifth element (a phrase that is now trademarked by that movie...j/k) called aether is represented as ether in the D&D game. While it admittedly is not an element in the same form as the other four, it does exist as the mix of the previous four. In D&D cosmological terms, the four elements mix into ether, the stuff of physical creation (the Elemental Planes lead to the Ethereal Plane), which then forms the basis for what actually is (the Material Plane). That's how it gets represented in D&D.
 

Chun-tzu said:
the 5 energy types

On an interesting note here, FCTF is so far the only product I've seen that addresses the sixth energy type: force. There are force-effects the same way there are fire, acid, sonic, etc. They have their own properties (affect incorporeal, etc) and such. So why doesn't force ever get recognized as an energy type?
 

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