The End of Angel

[Jamdin]

I am not surprised after the demise of "Buffy." However, I would have liked to have seen "Angel" and the new "Dark Shadows" back to back. It would have been cool to have the original vamp hunk, Barnabas, and the new vamp hunks, Angel and Spike, on the same night.

 

[Endur]

With Buffy off the air, it makes sense that Angel would also end.

 

[Wombat]

And the reason Joss' show is being cancelled is...

...Joss.

He has constantly quarrelled with executives, crew, and stars, publically and privately, brooking no disagreement. Despite the fact that Angel has been losing viewers dramatically in the last two seasons, he has been demanding more money. He has dissed Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charity Carpenter (the latter over her temerity to become pregnant before he had written that into his script), and has constantly hassled those who work with him.

Overall he has proven himself to be selfish, self-centered, inflexible, and a general pain to work with.

Yes, BtVS was a fun show. This does not make him the Supreme Being, however, and he refused to ever acknowledge this.

Joss has lost his show because he has the magic ability to cheese everyone off.

 

[LightPhoenix]

And the reason Joss' show is being cancelled is...

...Joss.

He has constantly quarrelled with executives, crew, and stars, publically and privately, brooking no disagreement. Despite the fact that Angel has been losing viewers dramatically in the last two seasons, he has been demanding more money. He has dissed Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charity Carpenter (the latter over her temerity to become pregnant before he had written that into his script), and has constantly hassled those who work with him.

Overall he has proven himself to be selfish, self-centered, inflexible, and a general pain to work with.

Yes, BtVS was a fun show. This does not make him the Supreme Being, however, and he refused to ever acknowledge this.

Joss has lost his show because he has the magic ability to cheese everyone off.

Seeing as how you can't even get one of the actress's names right (Charisma Carpenter), I'm wondering why exactly we should take your version as truth.

Besides which, I'm sure a lot of this image you posit is born out of the need to fight executives and their constant attempts to intrude upon shows.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Seeing as how you can't even get one of the actress's names right (Charisma Carpenter), I'm wondering why exactly we should take your version as truth.

Besides which, I'm sure a lot of this image you posit is born out of the need to fight executives and their constant attempts to intrude upon shows.

While all of what he said isn't established fact, I do think there's something there. Changes in writing and plot have been pretty obvious in both shows, and at times the only excuse for glaring plot holes is "trust in Joss". Joss Whedon's just a guy, and some of the antic's and blame games really do make for a bad environment.

There are plenty of series that manage to work with the system and still stay fresh, but I think Whedon is a victim of his own success. Buffy's move to Fox, Firefly cancelation, etc. From the numbers I've seen, Tru Calling probably isn't getting anywhere near Firefly's numbers, but they renewed it, most likely due to lower budget and easier management.

 

[Ranger REG]

And the reason Joss' show is being cancelled is...

...Joss.

He has constantly quarrelled with executives, crew, and stars, publically and privately, brooking no disagreement. Despite the fact that Angel has been losing viewers dramatically in the last two seasons, he has been demanding more money. He has dissed Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charity Carpenter (the latter over her temerity to become pregnant before he had written that into his script), and has constantly hassled those who work with him.

Overall he has proven himself to be selfish, self-centered, inflexible, and a general pain to work with.

Yes, BtVS was a fun show. This does not make him the Supreme Being, however, and he refused to ever acknowledge this.

Joss has lost his show because he has the magic ability to cheese everyone off.

Perhaps. While I cannot understand why Joss chose to lose two good characters (Cordelia and Connor) and then make Angel & Co. fighting the good fight, utilizing resources from an evil corporation that is Wolfram & Hart, I'd be more afraid of network "suit" trying to tell him what to do.

After all, meddling by network "suits" usually results in cancellation. It happened with Babylon 5 and their spin-offs, and it did Star Trek: The Original Series in after only three seasons.

If anyone who remembered Firefly, a FOX sci-fi series by Joss, it too was short-lived because of network meddling.

 

[Umbran]

From the numbers I've seen, Tru Calling probably isn't getting anywhere near Firefly's numbers, but they renewed it, most likely due to lower budget and easier management.

There is no real need to speculate on difficulty with management when the numbers are sufficient.

Yes, Tru Calling has lesser numbers. But Tru Calling has almost exactly zero in terms of special effects. It's basically a small-cast drama. Nice and cheap. You don't need high ratings to support cheap. Firefly had lots of effects and CGI shots. Very expensive. You need big numbers to support expensive.

The main argument against it being personality issues is pretty simple - Joss has managed to have the two shows running for a long time now. He managed over seven years, and only now the personality issue is so bad that it gets things cancelled? That doesn't sound terribly plausible.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The main argument against it being personality issues is pretty simple - Joss has managed to have the two shows running for a long time now. He managed over seven years, and only now the personality issue is so bad that it gets things cancelled? That doesn't sound terribly plausible.

Simply that a successful show will let them gloss over any difficulties. When the show starts winding down, there's a problem. It may even just be a 5 season rule for them, since that's what Buffy went through before moving to Fox.

Besides, I said Tru Calling had a lower budget in the very portion you quoted.

Given Buffy & Angel's success, I'd think they'd have given Firefly a longer chance than they did, so I think there was more than just a budget to it. Canceling it before it has a chance to recoup the money you've invested in it is harsh.

If it was all teh budgetary reasoning, they could have just told Whedon to cut back on the effects and use more stock footage already shot. He'd most likely have said no and the show would have gone off the air anyway, but there's the option.

But, I only watched one episode, couldn't stand to watch more, so I can't say what the truth of the matter is, just discussing it on a discussion forum.

 

[Staffan]

Perhaps. While I cannot understand why Joss chose to lose two good characters (Cordelia and Connor) and then make Angel & Co. fighting the good fight, utilizing resources from an evil corporation that is Wolfram & Hart, I'd be more afraid of network "suit" trying to tell him what to do.

From what I understand, Charisma left because her option was up, and she didn't want to be on the show anymore (commonly, actors are optioned for shows for seven years. After that time, the studio needs to renegotiate. That's why Terry Farrell left DS9 after seven years.), and possibly due to personal differences between her and Joss. I bet that in a Perfect World according to Joss, she would have remained on the show (and wouldn't have gotten pregnant). As for Connor, let's just say he's not exactly my favorite character on the show...

After all, meddling by network "suits" usually results in cancellation. It happened with Babylon 5 and their spin-offs, and it did Star Trek: The Original Series in after only three seasons.

Babylon 5 was not cancelled due to meddling by network suits, though it did come close. It was always planned to run five years. JMS said so pretty much from day one.

 

[Michael Tree]

From what I understand, Charisma left because her option was up, and she didn't want to be on the show anymore
[Snip]
As for Connor, let's just say he's not exactly my favorite character on the show...

Babylon 5 was not cancelled due to meddling by network suits, though it did come close. It was always planned to run five years. JMS said so pretty much from day one.

The suits were threatening to cancel Babylon 5 during its third and fourth season, causing JMS to accelerate the main storyline in order to finish it by the end of season 4, which no doubt is part of the reason why season 5 was a bit lackluster.

As for Connor... Joss has always been very good about listening to what his fans like and dislike. And Charisma's decision no doubt had something to do with her having a new baby to raise.