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The Essentials articles are atrocious.

Looking at the paragon path section of the Avenger Handbook (Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible), I do not see anything you are referring to at all.

Here is the direct quote from the guide:

Unfortunately, as of this writing there are no Avenger paths that are as good at striking as, say, Pitfighter or Daggermaster. The Avenger paths range from bad to ok, but never make it over to great. However, if you're willing to multiclass, there are some great PPs out there for you to take. They just cost an extra feat.

If that's unacceptable, be sure to check out your racial PP (or any racial PP you qualify for, for the Revenants or Half-Elves among you). Some of them don't suck.

Otherwise, I recommend Ardent Champion

To me that says "Don't take Avenger Paragon Paths, take Pitfighter or Daggermaster instead...and if you don't want those, take a racial Paragon Path, and if you REALLY have to be an actual Avenger...take Ardent Champion."
 

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The reason I get annoyed at them is because of the stuff that keeps being brought into my games that is clearly overpowered based on "I read it on the CharOp boards, there is no way they'd give me stuff that wasn't legal." Then, when I read the rules it always comes down to the way someone reads a specific sentence somewhere. If I choose to read it slightly differently the game stays balanced.

BS. Handbooks always assume for a conservative DM. Cite some examples, please.

As for the handbooks, my ire to them comes from reading the Avenger one. It basically said that there were only two ways of making an Avenger: The guy who runs around enemies randomly provoking Opportunity Attacks and the one that does everything he can to get enemies to move away from them on their turns voluntarily.

Of course, it's fairly obvious that the way they are intended to be played is that, despite the names, the Pursuing Avenger wants enemies to stay next to him and acts as a sort of Defender, while the Isolating Avenger encourages all the other enemies NOT to attack him through the use of his class features while occupying one of the enemies by himself, acting as a sort of controller by preventing the enemies from working together.

Of course, in order to do the most damage possible, you want your class feature to trigger the most often. But to do so basically means playing the class in the exact opposite method it was meant to be played in. The guide never says this. In fact, it is written in such a way as to make it sound like playing the class in the intended way is stupid. It then goes on to rate all of the powers in the class assuming that you are using one of the two valid tactics for creating an Avenger. It rates a bunch of the powers that are GOOD for Avengers as bad because they cause the class features to trigger less often.

It then basically tells everyone that the best idea as an Avenger is to multiclass as Rogue and use a Dagger, since that's the only way to qualify for Daggermaster. It made comments to the effect that playing a single class Avenger who took a Paragon Path that was designed for Avengers was a fools game.

And yes, following the advice of the guide maximizes your damage output. It's a good idea if you care about nothing but damage output. But it was completely useless for me when deciding what to take for my Avenger. And it certainly shouldn't be advice for new players.

Hold up.

Sounds like the problem isn't with the guide.

It sounds like the problem is that the class isn't well built, and is contrary to itself.

If you have to choose between being good against the class design, and being bad and in the class design, then the problem isn't with the handbook that points out the bloody flaws.

To me that says "Don't take Avenger Paragon Paths, take Pitfighter or Daggermaster instead...and if you don't want those, take a racial Paragon Path, and if you REALLY have to be an actual Avenger...take Ardent Champion."

It's saying "Hey, these paragon paths are better then the Avenger ones." And that's all it's saying.

The little "If you really have to be an ACTUAL Avenger" part comes from you.

Your attributing things to the handbooks that aren't there. More then that, you're attributing a purpose to the handbooks that aren't there.

The handbooks aren't there to tell you the fluff of the class. The handbooks aren't there to tell you how to roleplay the class. The handbooks aren't there to tell you how to create your character concept. The handbooks are there to look at the game logically and help you choose the best powers for your archtype.

In other words? The handbooks fit 4e to a T.
 

Here is the direct quote from the guide:



To me that says "Don't take Avenger Paragon Paths, take Pitfighter or Daggermaster instead...and if you don't want those, take a racial Paragon Path, and if you REALLY have to be an actual Avenger...take Ardent Champion."

You seem to be reading this under your own biased light. Allow me to quote the Handbook in question:

Ardent Champion(DP)
This is a +striker PP, and it's good.

The first +striker feature is the crit special, which should add around 3% to your crit rate, depending on the exact interpretation used. (do you need to hit to crit using this feature?). The best part about this feature is that it stacks with any other way you have of increasing your critical range (like an Artificier with Vorpal Sigil, or Jagged weapons).

The second +striker feature is the level 16 feature: free MBA on a crit. That rocks, actually, and basically requires you to get an expanded crit range through some mechanism (Bless Weapon+Salves of Power, Artificers, Jagged, Light Blade mastery). Light Blade Mastery + Spiked Chain Mastery + Two Weapon Opening + Punisher of the Gods equals a fun fun time at Epic.

If you have any multiattacks, the u12d will make the encounter. The other powers don't suck, which leaves the PP looking pretty good in the final analysis.

To me, that sounds like it is bringing to notice a gem in the rough for actual avenger paragon paths.
 

BS. Handbooks always assume for a conservative DM. Cite some examples, please.
I recently told a DM that I was planning on becoming a Daggermaster as a Sorcerer in order to get the extra crit range on all my spells. That DM told me that there was no way he was allowing the extra crit range on spells because it was a Rogue Paragon Path that was obviously meant to make them better at striking vital areas due to using a small and fast weapon that was more accurate and that didn't apply to spells at all when a Dagger was used as an implement.

I pointed out that nothing in the rules says you get the crit range only when using the Dagger as a weapon. He told me that it didn't matter about the absolute letter of the rules, the intention behind it was just important and that the Paragon Path doesn't mention anything caster classes wanting this class or it being very good for them.

Now, this is pretty much an agreed upon use of the rules by everyone in the CharOp boards, and is recommended in most builds. In fact, increasing the crit range of your dagger/using Weapon Focus/Two Weapon Fighting/Dual Implements is one of the hallmarks of optimizing Sorcerers on the boards.

And until I saw the answer come back from WOTC that you could use Weapon Focus on implement attacks if the implement was also a weapon...I would never have considered allowing it. I would have told people they were crazy. I still think it was a bad idea for WOTC to have given that answer. It's the answer that opened up the floodgates of "If this feat that appeared to be meant only for weapons works on implements...what other rules that say 'weapon' can now mean implement?"

I still have DMs who are trying to keep things under control in their games by ignoring that answer and saying that anything that refers to weapons works only when used as a weapon and not when used as an implement in order to control this.


It sounds like the problem is that the class isn't well built, and is contrary to itself.

If you have to choose between being good against the class design, and being bad and in the class design, then the problem isn't with the handbook that points out the bloody flaws.
Why is that? I like my Avenger who plays within the class design just fine. In fact, he's one of my favorite characters. I was looking at the guide to figure out what Avenger powers someone else recommended that would be good for my character. I instead found a guide that said "Don't take this power, it is really bad" for almost every power I already had and all the ones I was thinking of taking.

It's this idea that has also gotten a bunch of my friends into a mindset to stop playing classes. Instead they play classes just for the class features and them promptly multiclass into another class for its best power.

This was one of the things that bothered me the most about 3.5e. No one played archetypes anymore, they simply robbed a class of its mechanical benefits in order to become more powerful. I was happy when I saw how poor a choice multiclassing was in 4e because I felt that would encourage people to stay one class and to have multiclassing be the rarity. Unfortunately, the ability to take Paragon Paths designed for other classes has brought back the "Everyone is multiclassed" trend from 3.5e.

Your attributing things to the handbooks that aren't there. More then that, you're attributing a purpose to the handbooks that aren't there.
The only purpose I think these guides should have is to tell you the best, most effective way to make the class do what the class does.

This one says "Since the Avenger is a striker, I'm going to put on the Striker lens when I evaluate paragon paths. If a path makes a decent leader, for example, I may point that out, but it's rating will suffer unless it also makes a decent striker."

Which is putting on too narrow a lens for an article on how best to play an Avenger, which is clearly not a "pure" striker in the same way that Ranger is.

I'd prefer an article that says "An Avenger is a Striker but can lean toward controller, leader, or defender. If a Paragon Path lets you do any of these secondary roles well, I will rate it highly based on how effectively it lets you fill that role, but point out WHAT it is effective at. If a Paragon Path simply does a worse job than any other method of fulfilling that role available to you, I will rate it poorly."

And when it comes down to it, a large portion of it is opinion based on how the author thinks the class should work. Which is nearly useless if I don't see the class working the same way.

The handbooks aren't there to tell you the fluff of the class. The handbooks aren't there to tell you how to roleplay the class. The handbooks aren't there to tell you how to create your character concept. The handbooks are there to look at the game logically and help you choose the best powers for your archtype.

In other words? The handbooks fit 4e to a T.
I disagree. The Avenger handbook never helps me build my archetype. The closest my Avenger comes to anything it considers acceptable is a "Martyr". However, I still want to avoid being hit whenever possible even though I put myself out there in dangerous situations and dare enemies to hit me so I can get extra damage. But the guide recommended against anything that would increase my AC, since I do more damage when enemies hit me.

I want a balance between "I do extra damage when people hit me" and "I don't want to die". But any power that would give me that balance is picked on by the guide as being contrary to what you want to build a Martyr and therefore not worth taking.

But I also want a character who is a religious fanatic who embodies his gods ideals and punishes his enemies using Holy Might. Which is why I picked Avenger as a class.

But the article never tells me how to best play that archetype. It tells me how to play the two archetypes that the author has decided are the only two valid archetypes for Avengers to have.

I disagree that any guide for 4e needs to entirely remove fluff or roleplaying from its calculation. Or that 4e is somehow designed for this type of guide.
 

I recently told a DM that I was planning on becoming a Daggermaster as a Sorcerer in order to get the extra crit range on all my spells. That DM told me that there was no way he was allowing the extra crit range on spells because it was a Rogue Paragon Path that was obviously meant to make them better at striking vital areas due to using a small and fast weapon that was more accurate and that didn't apply to spells at all when a Dagger was used as an implement.

I pointed out that nothing in the rules says you get the crit range only when using the Dagger as a weapon. He told me that it didn't matter about the absolute letter of the rules, the intention behind it was just important and that the Paragon Path doesn't mention anything caster classes wanting this class or it being very good for them.

So your first bit of evidence is "My DM made up some BS about how he and only he knew the TRUE nature of the rules, when he could've just told me no and end it at that."

Now, this is pretty much an agreed upon use of the rules by everyone in the CharOp boards, and is recommended in most builds. In fact, increasing the crit range of your dagger/using Weapon Focus/Two Weapon Fighting/Dual Implements is one of the hallmarks of optimizing Sorcerers on the boards.

This is the agreed upon use of the rules by everyone but your DM. The problem with "rules as I interpret" is that it means "Rules as I think they should be, not as how they actually are." And while there's nothing wrong with houserules, that only works if you actually announce them as houserules.

And until I saw the answer come back from WOTC that you could use Weapon Focus on implement attacks if the implement was also a weapon...I would never have considered allowing it. I would have told people they were crazy. I still think it was a bad idea for WOTC to have given that answer. It's the answer that opened up the floodgates of "If this feat that appeared to be meant only for weapons works on implements...what other rules that say 'weapon' can now mean implement?"

I'm admittingly not active on the 4e forums - could you show me where the handbooks discuss using other weapons used as implement feats?

I still have DMs who are trying to keep things under control in their games by ignoring that answer and saying that anything that refers to weapons works only when used as a weapon and not when used as an implement in order to control this.

Let me get this straight.

My question: Show me where the handbook wasn't conservative about the rules.
Your answer: My DM feared losing control and made up a houserule, but claimed that it's what the rules are meant to be, it's just that nobody else in the world could see it properly.

Why is that? I like my Avenger who plays within the class design just fine. In fact, he's one of my favorite characters. I was looking at the guide to figure out what Avenger powers someone else recommended that would be good for my character. I instead found a guide that said "Don't take this power, it is really bad" for almost every power I already had and all the ones I was thinking of taking.

Once again, the handbooks aren't there to teach you how to roleplay. They're there to discuss what's logically and mathamatically the best options. You could find skill: underwater basket weaving to be awesomely fun! But it's still mostly bloody useless.

It's this idea that has also gotten a bunch of my friends into a mindset to stop playing classes. Instead they play classes just for the class features and them promptly multiclass into another class for its best power.

This was one of the things that bothered me the most about 3.5e. No one played archetypes anymore, they simply robbed a class of its mechanical benefits in order to become more powerful. I was happy when I saw how poor a choice multiclassing was in 4e because I felt that would encourage people to stay one class and to have multiclassing be the rarity. Unfortunately, the ability to take Paragon Paths designed for other classes has brought back the "Everyone is multiclassed" trend from 3.5e.

This isn't a problem with the handbooks, it's a problem with the system. If this bugs you, then play 2e. 3.5 and 4e are designed around the mechanics.

The only purpose I think these guides should have is to tell you the best, most effective way to make the class do what the class does.

...Yes, that's the purpose of any guide.

This one says "Since the Avenger is a striker, I'm going to put on the Striker lens when I evaluate paragon paths. If a path makes a decent leader, for example, I may point that out, but it's rating will suffer unless it also makes a decent striker."

Which is putting on too narrow a lens for an article on how best to play an Avenger, which is clearly not a "pure" striker in the same way that Ranger is.

I'd prefer an article that says "An Avenger is a Striker but can lean toward controller, leader, or defender. If a Paragon Path lets you do any of these secondary roles well, I will rate it highly based on how effectively it lets you fill that role, but point out WHAT it is effective at. If a Paragon Path simply does a worse job than any other method of fulfilling that role available to you, I will rate it poorly."

If the Avenger cannot take the place of another role, why even bother mentioning it? You can have a fighter that you like to pretend is also a controller, but if the mechanics don't follow up, then all you're doing is writing fanfiction.

And when it comes down to it, a large portion of it is opinion based on how the author thinks the class should work. Which is nearly useless if I don't see the class working the same way.

So write a handbook. No, seriously. There's like four Sorcerer handbooks. If you disagree with the Avenger handbook so much, make your own.


Lots of stuff on character mechanics

Haven't played an Avenger, so I can't comment much here.[/quote]

I disagree that any guide for 4e needs to entirely remove fluff or roleplaying from its calculation. Or that 4e is somehow designed for this type of guide.

And you're wrong. Sorry, but you are. 4e is 100% designed around you, the player, making up and/or substituting the fluff. It's what the vast majority of 4e fans state as the thing they love most about it. And there is nothing that would raise more hackles and cause more fights then a handbook stating how to roleplay. Hell, look at how big this thread and argument is over the discussion of math. You made multiple paragraphs about how angry you are that the Avenger handbook picked only two mechanical archtypes. How much more angry would you get if it picked to ways of roleplaying an Avenger and only talked about those?



Now, if you'll allow me to link this back around, name some things from the Essentials articles that are better then the Handbooks. And this goes to everyone, not just Majoru.
 

firt of all somehow somewhere people have mistaken essentials articles for some made up article that is all about optimazation...that is not it. These articles are about building characters that are viable not optimazed

As for the handbooks, my ire to them comes from reading the Avenger one. It basically said that there were only two ways of making an Avenger: The guy who runs around enemies randomly provoking Opportunity Attacks and the one that does everything he can to get enemies to move away from them on their turns voluntarily.

Yea it gets me mad when I read defender things about forceing the marks too. "Be a paliden and challenge then go invisable" or "Be a fighter/rouge to mark and have riposet strike going"

maybe I want to play a defender that uses the mark as wotc intended (and states this intent). If the bad guy attacks my allie the mark failed...but I get a punishment rider. I am sick of optimazed pcs that claim I am 'nerfing' there build by having marked monsters not ignore the mark...


Hold up.

Sounds like the problem isn't with the guide.

It sounds like the problem is that the class isn't well built, and is contrary to itself.

The problem is it is a diffrent play style. You can tell the fluff of avenger is written for one thing, but the mechanic lets you go the other. Becuse mathmaticly one is better it is pushed to the detment of the other...


If you have to choose between being good against the class design, and being bad and in the class design, then the problem isn't with the handbook that points out the bloody flaws.

what about when the op board suggest the best avengers are ones that multi and take lots of non avenger powers...um but I wanted to play an avenger


It's saying "Hey, these paragon paths are better then the Avenger ones." And that's all it's saying.

The little "If you really have to be an ACTUAL Avenger" part comes from you.

Your attributing things to the handbooks that aren't there. More then that,you're attributing a purpose to the handbooks that aren't there.
the purpose of suggesting that all avenger are BETTER for multi classing is min/maxing at it;s worst...the class can make very powerful characters as is...but not the BEST characters...



The handbooks aren't there to tell you the fluff of the class. The handbooks aren't there to tell you how to roleplay the class. The handbooks aren't there to tell you how to create your character concept. The handbooks are there to look at the game logically and help you choose the best powers for your archtype.

this is why they fail as essentials articles...
 

The specific content aside.

I think Essentials and Class Acts serve different roles.
- The Essentials is all about describing how the class and its builds are supposed to work* and how to build characters for them. I suppose sometimes they miss the mark, and I think WotC will have to check when that happened and why that happened.

- The Class Acts are about specific - often new - focuses of a class. The "Illusionist Wizard" didn't exist per se before that Class Act appeared, since only that act added needed illusion powers to the Wizard. They don't try to cover the basics, they add a twist or theme to the class that did not exist before or was not worked out well enough.

Of course there is some overlap. The Essentials add new powers trying to improve a few available build options. But that seems to be mostly about covering the Essentials - be a really good two-handed weapon guy, an essential build and theme of the class.
But adding illusion or fey powers doesn't make you a better Control or War Wizard.



* "Supposed to work" is a lot about design intent. MAybe you can achieve better "DPS" or "Defense" or whatever you care for if you do another build. But that's not he goal of the class or build.
But in some cases I think they even got the basics wrong - my Inspiring Warlord definitely feels more like a secondary defender (Sword, Board, Plate Armor), something they seem to associate with the Tactical Warlord, for example, and I would not benefit from Commander's Strike in the least.
But Majoru Oakhearts description of the Class Optimization guidelines clearly show where people go in the wrong direction. A pursuing avenger is supposed to make it futile for the enemy to run away. Yes, he will deal less damage if he does that, but this part of the class - even if is is a Striker class - was not just there to deal more damage. It's a striker reducing the enemies mobility so he can't fight as effectively. Yes, that's "anti-DPS" for the enemy instead of DPS for the player character.
 


I spoke explicitely of a single minion.

The whole point of minions is that you encounter them in packs, frequently hordes, sometimes swarms. (Yes, I've been playing Heroes of Might and Magic recently, why do you ask?) So choosing powers on the basis of what will help you against a single minion is... poor planning IMO, unless your DM takes a very unconventional approach to combat.

Anyway, that aside...

An article advising players on builds and tactics should offer the most effective builds and tactics, within any constraints which apply. This is just basic good sense.

Now, that "within any constraints which apply" is important. An article aimed at newbies should offer builds and tactics which newbies can handle, which is why simply pointing them at the CharOp boards is not the best plan*. You don't want to be explaining how Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro unless the enemy has decided to use Agrippa, when what your audience needs is "This is how to hold a sword properly."

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't teach them how to hold a sword properly! Sure Strike is mechanically sub-par. An attack stat of 15 (!) is sub-par. Telling someone "Pick Cleave or Tide of Iron over Sure Strike, and put an 18 in your attack stat" is not expert-level advice. In fact, these are extremely newbie-friendly suggestions; they boost your character's combat performance no matter how skilled or unskilled a player you are**.

Other constraints might be "don't rely on dubious rules interpretations," and "don't subvert the concept of a class" (e.g., optimizing a wizard into a melee powerhouse). But neither of those constraints applies to deciding between Sure Strike and Cleave.

I'm not going to accuse anyone of badwrongfun for picking Sure Strike. But build advice, by its nature, implies a goal of improving mechanical effectiveness***. If mechanical effectiveness is not your concern, why are you giving build advice at all?

----

[SIZE=-2]*As regards the CharOp boards: Take them for what they are. They're a great place for theorycraft and for evaluating the mechanical effectiveness of powers, feats, and builds. They should not be treated as the Word of God on how to build a character, but they do offer a valid and useful perspective.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]**An example of non-newbie-friendly advice is the argument that you can use Sure Strike with Heavy Blade Opportunity at Paragon tier in order to control the battlefield better. Yeah, you can, but that's a substantial trade-off and requires a fair amount of play experience to weigh the costs and benefits. Also, it doesn't kick in till Paragon, so you're almost certainly better off taking something else at Heroic tier and then retraining. Any advice which involves planning to retrain is not newbie-friendly.

***For some value of "mechanical effectiveness." Despite CharOp's preoccupation with damage output, you can optimize for different things. Skill Focus (Stealth) is a poor pick for a rogue who wants to be a death machine in battle, but a strong pick for a rogue who wants to be the ultimate scout.
[/SIZE]
 
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[SIZE=-2]*An example of non-newbie-friendly advice is the argument that you can use Sure Strike with Heavy Blade Opportunity at Paragon tier in order to control the battlefield better. Yeah, you can, but that's a substantial trade-off and requires a fair amount of play experience to weigh the costs and benefits. Also, it doesn't kick in till Paragon, so you're almost certainly better off taking something else at Heroic tier and then retraining. Any advice which involves planning to retrain is not newbie-friendly.[/SIZE]

For those whom retraining should be a role play element... you could even visualize your character going from a brash youth... and retraining up to being a sure fire master. :lol:
 

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