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Message: <blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 3349400" data-attributes="member: 29746">Finally I have some time to respond to this!Few do, as evidenced (though partly precipitated by) the large number of products geared towards the so-called "sweet spot" of 6th-12th level. For my part, I've always preferred the rarified heights above 16th, in every edition of the game. I think it's more fun when the DM can throw out world-shaking and cosmos-shaking plots at the drop of a hat and the PCs can (A) handle it, and (B) take it seriously since they've seen stuff like it before. The epic drama available at these levels allows storytelling like nothing else.Here's your lack of experience showing, sorry to say. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> High-level combat in D&D 3.x just about never lasts as long as 6 rounds unless multiple combatants are engaged on each side. Before then, one side or the other will be taken out by some super-instant-death-type effect, or retreat to regroup. Either way, the combat is over. Most combats, IME, last one or two rounds.Also, CR 22 is not a "big bad" for a 20th-level party- it would be for 18th, but for 20th you need to go at least to 24 or 25 to have a really credible "big bad" enemy that's scary. CR 22 is diffcult to a 20th-level party, but not really scary. The Adventure Paths in Dungeon have done a good job of showing what "big bads" and "mooks" and "lieutenants" look like at and around 20th level- in Dawn of a New Age, for example, the last module in the Age of Worms, several opponents are CR 22 or 23, most ELs are 21 (made up of multiple creatures), and the real "big bad" is so powerful that his CR isn't actually rated (though to be fair, it is supposed to be the end of a campaign).600-odd hit points may seem high, but look at it this way: expect the party tank to come in and deal on the order of 20 hit points per successful hit, and you can expect one or two hits per round. But the tank's not alone: throw a Rogue into the mix and suddenly those 10d6 Sneak Attacks from flanking come into play. Then the party blaster mage is throwing around Maximized Disintegrates (a Sorcerer could potentially do this 5 times) for 240 damage each, and as I noted in my last "comment" post the entity's SR is a joke to many casters of that level. Throw in the Metamagic Rods that high-level spellcasters love, and you can get Maximized Empowered Disintegrates and even more fun things. Admittedly his Fort save is high, but even so- Maximized Disintegrates are only one of the many options for massive damage that a 20th-level spellcaster has available.In other words, 600 hit points won't last 6 rounds. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> If you want 6 rounds, you'll need to go up to 1000 at least- and even then you can expect the party to run away when the "invincible monster just won't die!!!"Fair enough! I agree on this spell, actually, though I did go with the official rules for my own game even though I disagreed with the change. It's worth noting, though, in the monster statblock, that you're using the 3.0 version of Emotion and some DMs running 3.5 may want to change it to the list of sub-spells instead.Believe me when I say, Epic DR will not prevent a sub-Epic party (at 19th or 20th level) from taking on a beast with Epic DR and winning. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> At least, in the CR range we're talking about- 22 or so.Fine design goal, but note that this renders most of his SLAs useless against a party of the level he could be expected to face according to your posts. Most on the list are "save to negate" effects, which means by using the SLA you waste his action. In high-level play, actions are by far the most precious commodity- whoever gets the most, wins.Pages upon pages of threads about FC1 were on this very topic. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> No need to rehash all that, but know that the vast majority of DMs who run Epic games agree with you. The one bright spot of the FC1 stats is that they gave a nice procedure for advancing the Demon Lords right there in the same chapter, and it does help make them more appropriate challenges when correctly used. I did a Demogorgon advanced to 40 HD (and CR 36) for my own Epic game, and was satisfied with the results even though he only lasted 2 rounds once my PCs unleashed their full fury at him.The above secondary comments may help, but I'll see you point for point below.Reverse Gravity is a cute trick at the sorts of levels you're talking about, and nothing more really. Most PCs I've seen or read about at 20th level either have magic items that let them fly more or less at will, or can Teleport and thus bypass the region of reversed gravity painlessly. Reverse Gravity is only good for tactical carving-up of the battlefield, really, and not all that good even at that once the enemy knows it's there.Power Word, Kill is nasty to people without 150 hit points- but at 20th level, that will usually mean the Sorcerer or Wizard and that's it. CON-boosting items and spells are used as a matter of course at this level, and tanks should be expected to have on the order of 400 hit points or more when at full health. In my own Epic game, both of the current party blaster-magi had over 200 hit points at 20th level, though both of them started with high CON scores and were using stat-boosting items to the hilt at the time (so my situation is by no means standard). Also, and far mroe importantly, Power Word Kill is an Enchantment spell. And Mind-Affecting besides. At 20th level, the party that goes around without Mind Blanks protecting at least their low-hp members is just asking the DM to drop a Ninja Demon Death Squad on them. Mind Blank, of course, renders the recipient immune to Mind-Affecting effects- and thus all three Power Words are useless against somebody under its effect. And beyond Mind Blank, Power Word Kill is also a Death effect, which means that Death Ward renders its recipient immune. Death Ward is a mere 4th-level spell, so at 20th level you can expect a prepared party to be protecting every member with it- and possibly some helpful NPCs as well who just came along for the ride.Word of Chaos is indeed a show-stopper, and very difficult to get around. This is his ace in the hole, but of course- there are ways around it. Sage Advice columns have noted (IIRC) that a Silence cuts off the effect of all four alignment Words, except for the Banishment, and I also believe Spell Turning and similar effects can stop it.Never assume the party will contain solely members of the opposed alignment, when designing a monster. If you do, you're just nerfing the monster against enemies you didn't consider (in this case, non-Lawfuls). Also, a 24th level Fighter worth his salt will have a lot more going for him than the measly +2 from his Epic Attack Bonus, compared with 20th level. There's Epic Weapon Focus to take into account, bigger STR boosts from items, Manuals of Gainful Exercise and/or Wishes, and of course the ability increase from levelling up, and last but certainly not least- increased weapon enhancement bonuses. I did say that a "serious build" 20th level Fighter could hit AC 46 "better than half the time" with the first attack; this means that even if we do take into account the +4 AC from Cloak (which, as you noticed, you shouldn't anyway since it's Deflection), you've only reduced the 20th-level Fighter's chance to hit to about 1/4 the time instead of 1/2. The 24th-level Fighter is going to have an attack bonus considerably higher, swinging the chance back in his favor again.How's he planning to get past the party tank to grab those casters? Also, Arcane casters at this level can nearly always Teleport- which is an insta-escape to any grappling situation. Even Swallow Whole. Finally, once again a mid-level spell puts a rain on this parade; Freedom of Movement is only 4th level but renders the recipient utterly immune to all Grapple attempts.As a general monster-design rule, most monsters should have SR equal to CR + 10 to have it be credible. If you look at most high-CR monster stats you'll find that to be the case.Here's where the point I made above about actions comes into play. If he uses his action to Greater Dispel- and note that he has to do the targeted version to be able to get more than one spell with it, which would mean he has to pick one out of the four assailants (monsters are typically designed assuming a party of four PCs as you may know)- that's an action he didn't use to attack the tank who's barrelling down on his toady butt, grapple that sorcerer who was all set to Horrid Wilting him into next week, or some other offensive action. This gives the party a whole round to set up their strike against him, or replace the buffs he just got rid of if they're that critical. One Time Stop is all the 20th-level Arcanist (or even Cleric with the Trickery Domain) needs to get a lot of the lost buffs, if not all of them, back. His caster level 25th doesn't help his Dispel here, because it caps at +20 on the check- and that means he still only has about a 50% chance to get rid of any spell cast by a 20th-level caster.Glad to help- hope you don't take the above as aggressive argumentation. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm just showing you some of the things I've seen used, either by my own Epic party or somebody else's, which can really ruin a DM's day and throw those nice spiffy high-level powers you were sure were going to rain on their parade out the window.So, now I guess I need to find the time to do a detailed check on the others. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Perhaps tomorrow.</blockquote>

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