The FAQ on Sunder ...

[eamon]

Since the interpretation of Sunder as a standard action only relies on table 8-2: Actions in Combat, and since the PHB's tables aren't always... intuitive ;-), I decided to look up the rule texts if the actions under the "Standard Action" heading, to see if the rule texts explicitely mention the fact that they're standard actions:

Standard Action                      Rule text explicitly supports table
Attack (all types)                    yes (pg 139)
Activate a magic item                 yes (pg 142)
Aid Another                           yes (pg 154)
Bull Rush                             yes (pg 154)
Cast a Spell                          yes (pg 140)
Concentrate to Maintain Spell         yes (pg 140)
Dismiss a spell                       yes (pg 142)
Draw a Hidden weapon                  yes (pg 82)
Drink a Potion*                       yes (DMG 213)
Escape a Grapple                      yes** (pg 156)
Feint                                 yes (pg 155)
Light a toch with Tindertwig          yes (pg 129)
Lower Spell Resistance                yes (pg 177)
Make Dieing Friend Stable             yes (pg 76)
Overrun                               yes (pg 157)
Read a scroll                         yes (pg 142)
Ready                                 yes (pg 160)
Sunder                                no (pg 158)
Total Defense                         yes (pg 142)
Turn Undead                           yes (pg 159
Use Extraordinary Ability             yes (pg 142)
Use Skill that takes one action       yes (pg 145)
Use Spell like Ability                yes (pg 142)
Use Supernatural Ability              yes (pg 142)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
* (action not described in PHB, though Activate Magic Item does
   generically describe it and supports the table as well)
** Text is explicit that such an Escape is a standard action when using
     Escape Artist.  A normal grapple check can be made instead of a 
     melee attack.

The fact that the table in question is clearly set up to provide an overview of whether an action provokes AoO's, and the fact that all other standard actions explicitly mention they're standard actions, coupled with the fact that the Sunder description's text is similar to "Disarm" "Throw Splash Weapons" and "Trip", all of which you can use instead of a normal attack, and finally coupled with the FAQ's explicit interpretation, I can't really see any support for interpreting Sunder as a standard action which can't be taken whenever you could normally attack.

Sunder says "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding." That certainly sounds like you can use any melee attack to do so, but context could expand the requirements - i.e. that a melee attack is a necessary though not sufficient requirement. That context, however, is only implicitly present in the form of tabl 8-2.

Interpreting Sunder as a standard action really requires assuming that the absence of footnote 7 in table 8-2 is an intentional signal indicating that it can't be used to substitute for a normal attack. Significantly, even normal attacks, ranged attacks and unarmed attacks are all listed without footnote 7, and they're all listed in the same section of the table as sunder, so that's not at all obvious.

The table definitely doesn't come out and say that it cannot be substituted for any other melee attack, and the previous evidence suggests that it can - all other standard actions explicitly say that's what they are, the FAQ indicates designer intent, and the rule text mentions that a melee attack can be used (and makes no mention of further requirements).

 

[Meeki]

I agree, the wording of Sunder is similar to disarm/trip/grapple and it says you make use a melee attack to strike a weapon. Sounds similar to making an attack to strike an opponent. Also, on the table of actions in combat, it says Sunder (attack) indicating that it is an attack, not a normal standard action such as a bull rush.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I can't really see any support for interpreting Sunder as a standard action which can't be taken whenever you could normally attack.

Such a reading requires you to throw out the table. It thus requires you to contradict at least one section of rules.

Interpreting Sunder as a standard action really requires assuming that the absence of footnote 7 in table 8-2 is an intentional

... and that the placement of the Sunder action on the table is intentional.

Conversely, the reading that it can be used like Disarm, Trip, or Grapple requires that the placement of Sunder on the table was an error and that the lack of Footnote 7 was an error.

Given that one reading requires the writers to have known what they were doing and throws out exactly 0 rules, and the other requires the writers to have made multiple mistakes and ignores at least some rules ...

... Do you really think the second reading is correct?

Significantly, even normal attacks, ranged attacks and unarmed attacks are all listed without footnote 7, and they're all listed in the same section of the table as sunder, so that's not at all obvious.

Huh?

 

[Meeki]

Actually the text of the sunder action does not completely contradict the table, it just explains the action. The table does NOT say it cannot be used as an AoO. The footnote states that these attacks (grapple, trip, disarm) are substituted for a melee attack BUT sunder IS a melee attack against a weapon or object. It is different from grapple, trip, and disarm in that you are still attacking with a normal melee attack. As the text of sunder says "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."

Clearly indicating you are not substituting an attack but rather striking an object instead of the creature itself, changing what you strike but NOT the fact that you are initiating a melee attack. This is why footnote 7 is excluded from sunder.

Still it says that sunder is an attack in the chart Sunder a Weapon (ATTACK). Clearly stating it is an attack.

 

[mvincent]

Since this has all been discussed before, wouldn't a poll be more informative?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually the text of the sunder action does not completely contradict the table, it just explains the action.

I agree. The text does not contradict the table at all.

Accordingly, it is a Standard Action.

The table does NOT say it cannot be used as an AoO.

The rules also do NOT say that all air elementals are made out of candy.

The rules, however, DO say that certain things can be done as an AoO: Trip, Grapple, and Disarm. They are conspicuously silent on whether or not Sunder can be done as an AoO.

Can you Full Attack as an AoO? Can you Cast a Spell as an AoO? Can you Drink a Potion as an AoO? Can you use a wand as an AoO?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Since this has all been discussed before, wouldn't a poll be more informative?

I'm not particularly interested in a poll's results.

 

[mvincent]

I'm not particularly interested in a poll's results.

Understandable (there is some information I prefer not knowing too), but others might be interested.

How about the writer's intent? Any interest?

 

[Meeki]

No the footnote say that you GIVE UP an attack to do those abilities. Sunder you do NOT give up an attack to do those, as it says in the sunder description. The foot note clearly states why they have the footnote and it is clear that sunder is not giving up an attack to perform a sunder but rather using an attack to strike a weapon etc.

BTW the melee attack action is under standard action and it does not have a foot note but you can still do it on an ATTACK of opportunity. According to you it has no footnote so the action cannot be used.

Full attack is a full round action not standard. Drinking a potion, using a wand, casting a spell do not have the word (attack) after them, so no you cannot use them on an ATTACK of opportunity.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No the footnote say that you GIVE UP an attack to do those abilities.

Actually, no, it doesn't It says "These These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

So, any time you are allowed a melee attack, you may trip or grapple or disarm. For each of these actions, you make an attack roll (unless you are already grappling, of course, in which case you get to skip the attack roll phase).

Sunder you do NOT give up an attack to do those, as it says in the sunder description.

I agree. You do not given up an attack to sunder. You also may not substitute a sunder for any melee attack, like you can with trip or disarm.

Rather, you get to sunder, and make a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon, whenever you get take the Sunder action.

BTW the melee attack action is under standard action

Right. And, as Hyp mentioned earlier:

It's similar to the line under the Attack action, "Making an attack is a standard action". This isn't true all the time; making an attack as part of a Charge action, Full Attack action, Attack of Opportunity, or so forth is not a standard action. But it's true in the context in which it appears - that is, in the description of the standard action, Attack. When you are taking the Attack action, making an attack is indeed a standard action. When you aren't taking the Attack action, making an attack might not be a standard action... but since the line is found in the description of the Attack action, it is true within the scope to which it applies.

Full attack is a full round action not standard.

So? Taking the Full Attack action involves making attacks, just like taking the Sunder action. If I can take the Sunder action on an AoO, why can't I take the Full Attack action?

Similarly ...

casting a spell do not have the word (attack) after them,

... casting the Shocking Grasp spell gives me an armed melee attack. Why can't I do that on an AoO?