The Flavorless Game?

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
I've been reading a lot on these boards lately that lead me to believe that while many players believe they would enjoy a game packed with detail and flavor, the games they play often just skim the surface of the type of game typically acknowledged as deeply immersive with roleplaying opportunities and flavor attached to story, setting and characters. Please describe the level of (flavor) detail you like in a game as well as the typical amount of flavor you actually wind up with in a game. Try not to argue with other posters about their description, as their definition of flavor and description of a flavorful game might differ greatly from your own. Just allow your own examples to carry the banner for the types of games you play and the types of games you ideally would play if you could. Avoid edition-specific language, as this is meant to stay away from the mechanics of the game and focus on the details that conjure up depth and are the catalyst for immersion in the game. Thanks.
 

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Guess we have a classical situation here: my players show a decent amount of interest in flavor and detail - at the start of a campaign. After a few sessions the flavor has worn off; they are back in 'basic D&D mode'.

It depends on the individual players involved, of cause.

The longest time I succeeded to keep them in flavor-mode was in WRFP's Enemy Within campaign. But when the flavor went off (several highly unsuccessful sessions in Power Behind the Throne), the whole game broke together.
 

Well, I'm kicking off my first real 4e campaign tonight and I'm sure hoping that it has some flavor. The campaign world is more different from "normal" than any I can recall running.

That said, the PC's will find themselves in very typical situations. Dungeon crawls, wilderness adventures, courtly intrigue, that kind of stuff. Which is a good thing in my opinion. I think it gets rough on immersion and mutual understanding if every scene of a campaign is vastly different than a standard game. But I'm very hopeful that the pervasive nature of the differences in my campaign world will add interesting flavor and details to the fairly standard situations I'm putting them in.
 

problem is, Flavor is a really big word that covers a lot of different areas: Theme, Plot, Setting Detail, and more.

Some of those are easy to sustain, and others are quick to fall by the wayside.
 

One thing: I'm running, and am In, some very plot-heavy campaigns (in fact, not every session has even had any combat)

But I'm also planning on running some quick things basically treating D&D like a board game: no plot, either random generation or out of the upcoming Delve book.
 

Avoid edition-specific language, as this is meant to stay away from the mechanics of the game and focus on the details that conjure up depth and are the catalyst for immersion in the game. Thanks.

Well, I'm kicking off my first real 4e campaign tonight and (. . .)

No edition discussion, please.

Try not to argue with other posters about their description, as their definition of flavor and description of a flavorful game might differ greatly from your own. Just allow your own examples to carry the banner for the types of games you play and the types of games you ideally would play if you could.

problem is, Flavor is a really big word that covers a lot of different areas: Theme, Plot, Setting Detail, and more.

Some of those are easy to sustain, and others are quick to fall by the wayside.

Define it for your own post and contribution to this thread, if you like, but leave it to others to deal with whether it requires explanation or not. Many people are comfortable just describing their own situation and allowing that description to make their definition self-evident. Don't over think this, just let us know what you are personally dealing with in the games you run or play, please.
 

I like killing bad guys and taking their stuff, and some reasonable pretense (motive, if you prefer) for doing so.

As I move through the levels finding new bad guys to kill, I prefer for that motive to change.

The players themselves and the group dynamic provide all the story/flavor I need.

The degree to which I will tolerate immersion and roleplaying that is not provided by the players is relative to the degree with which it interferes with the primary play experience of killing bad guys and taking their stuff.

I am afraid I am not the kind of player that "serious" DMs crave. :-S
 

If I'm playing, it depends on the DM. If the DM has a (rare, IME) talent for the flavor side, then I enjoy high-flavor low(er)-combat. Unfortunately, many DMs I've played with *think* they are good at this, but, well, really aren't. For those DMs that aren't, I just like a nice premise to go kill things and take their stuff.

If I'm DMing, it depends on the players. One of my long-time players is all about tactics, killing things, and taking their stuff regardless of the "plot". When I DM him, I make sure we're really light on flavor and just get to the fighting and treasure.

In the games he doesn't play in, I've DMed a bit more toward the flavor side, but I do not have the desire (or talent) to weave plots, subplots, and a diplomacy-style games, so the story side is usually simply including some memorable NPCs.
 

Well Mark, we've run for a long time in a flavor (if that is the right word) intensive game.

It's set in our real world in Constantinople with plenty of realism. We use real world weapons, political organizations, institutions, governments, rulers, historical figures, war-situations and enemies, religions, etc. The players love that they tell me. (And I love it cause it makes writing interesting adventures and missions, as well as campaign plots, really easy to construct. Though complicated to construct.)

So "realism" and historical involvement are big factors in the game. It adds to how well and how deeply the characters can become immersed in and personally involved in the world, campaigns, and plots. My personal theory is that it is much easier for players to personally "associate" and be sympathetic with cultures and groups and peoples and nations and religions they know and have something in common with. I also let my players use their own real-world skills in game. For instance if they are good at survival skills, or know how to track, they can use those skills in game, as if they and the character are the same person. This also adds to what I call Player-Character Sympathy. In some ways the characters are characters and in some ways the characters are the players. So real world issues (current affairs are written into adventure and campaign plots, just in historical form), realism, player-character overlap, etc. are all fundamental to the milieu.

That being said there is also another world, like ours, filled with non-humans, Elves, Dwarves, Giants, etc. That world is filled with magic and staring things and overlaps our world. In that world very bizarre and "otherworldly" things can and do happen.

The "interplay" between our world and the other world is what makes the setting able to do multiple things at once and allows humans and the human world, and non-humans and the non-human world, to operate very differently. One aspect of play I always enjoyed from the video-game Tomb Raider was the difference between things working "normally" (and yet still dangerously) in the regular world, and yet once she penetrated into the "underworld" of the bizarre, things operated completely differently. So I've tried to replicate that in my D&D milieu, and in the other games I've invented or written.

There are two competing aspects occurring at once, normal life, filled with national, tribal, and ethnic enemies, thieves and criminals, dangerous and cunning people, political forces, intrigue, tyrants, human monsters and human evil and good, etc. - and then there is the other world filled with monsters, angels, demons, dangerous magic, strange creatures, and so forth, and it is concerned with supernatural, preternatural, and unnatural and non-human evil and good.

I like the overlap and the conflict between these two different types of "flavor." You might call it.

But it makes demands that I greatly modify the "normal editions" of games. For instance our fantasy game is mostly D&D based, but some might consider it an entirely different game (and I am revising and writing it up in that way - I've been wanting to do that for years) though others might call it just an extremely complex and highly house-ruled D&D milieu. I guess it would depend on your point of view.

I'm not sure I answered your question in exactly the way you're shooting for.
But that's my stab at it.

I like "flavor" and find flavorless games boring, and I like role-play and find killing things just for the sake of killing things boring as well. Especially over time. (Though killing really evil, clever, cunning, crafty, and powerful things can be an awfully exciting tactical challenge, it is not what role play is ultimately about to me.)
 

This may not work for some games, but since I run my plot-lines somewhat like a mystery where the PCs uncover clues, secrets, etc. I find I end up starting with less flavour and more just overall feel of the campaign then add flavour and depth as they dig deeper into whatever the plot is. So keeping the flavour and such going comes more naturally since it is a integral part of the plot/game experience.
 

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