The Flavorless Game?

[Hussar]

I like killing bad guys and taking their stuff, and some reasonable pretense (motive, if you prefer) for doing so.

As I move through the levels finding new bad guys to kill, I prefer for that motive to change.

The players themselves and the group dynamic provide all the story/flavor I need.

The degree to which I will tolerate immersion and roleplaying that is not provided by the players is relative to the degree with which it interferes with the primary play experience of killing bad guys and taking their stuff.

I am afraid I am not the kind of player that "serious" DMs crave.

Wut he said.

I like flavour, I do. I don't want to do pnp Diablo. I HAVE Diablo for that. OTOH, I'm not trying to run Shakespeare either. Gimme something to kill, some dice to roll once in a while, just to feed the tactic monster, and I'm pretty much content to do whatever the party wants.

 

[Mark]

Since the thread seems to be getting away from describing and seems to be more about justifying without describing, or posting about definitions of flavor or bemoaning the difficulty of defining flavor, I thought I might repeat a portion of the original post.

Please describe the level of (flavor) detail you like in a game as well as the typical amount of flavor you actually wind up with in a game.

(. . .)

Thanks.

So, just post about some of the details (not mechanics) used in your game to evoke some flavor. Are building descriptions prevalent and how so? Are their people that populate the world detailed in their language and culture and how so? Are the physical particulars of treasures expansively portrayed and how so? No need to use a combination of comparison and pejorative to defend what you do, just describe what you do and state whether you wish there was more or less of it, or if it is just the right amount for games you like, please.

 

[Pbartender]

So, just post about some of the details (not mechanics) used in your game to evoke some flavor. Are building descriptions prevalent and how so?

Absolutely prevalent... It's how I like to set the mood.

Perhaps my best example was from an adventure I ran many years ago. In the midst of a jungle, the characters ran across "A towering step pyramid, draped in vines and lianas, and with a temple an alter perched at its peak. It's construction is cyclopean, being made of immense greenish-gray blocks of stone that are so perfectly joined that the seams between them are almost undetectable." At the top of pyramid, they found, "An enclosed temple, with a large, flat stone block serving as the altar. Grooves and channels, stained black, run down the sides of the altar and along the floor to a well nearly ten feet in diameter. The well is circled by three concentric rings of intricately carved hieroglyphics." When they try to look down the well... "The light doesn't penetrate deep enough to see the bottom. The flame of your lantern flickers in time with a periodic, cool and gentle breeze that pulses out of the well, as if the whole temple were breathing."

By the time I got done with that, anyone at the table who had read Lovecraft was nervous and on the edge of their seat. Without knowing anything else, they were reluctant to descend into the dungeon.

Are their people that populate the world detailed in their language and culture and how so?

Sort of... I usually do it by picking picking no more than a half dozen basic facts or stereotypes to help guide me as I DM. For example:

The Tanaroan natives are:

1. Similar to the stereotypical Pre-Columbian tribes of the Amazon jungle, unless otherwise specified.
2. Generally superstitious, with the exception of the Chieftain and the Shaman.
3. Revere a God of Death, and the spirits of their ancestors.
4. Have no taboo against "mindless" undead, and so often use zombies as menial laborers.
5. Are typically wary toward strangers, but are always more willing to make friends than enemies, given the choice.

Are the physical particulars of treasures expansively portrayed and how so?

Sometimes yes, and especially so when it comes to the more unique items or the treasure of interesting or powerful opponents.

Once, amongst the treasure of a powerful defeated demon, my players found several bloodstones as gems and a purse full of coins. Practically speaking, it was just basic treasure, worth a bunch of money that they could spend. No special magical powers, however...

I described the gems as being lukewarm to the touch, and faintly beating in sync as if the stones themselves had a common heartbeat.

There were several hundred gold coins in the purse, and each one had the profile of a head stamped into it, like would usually see of Emperors, Kings Queens and Princes. The likenesses on these coins, though, were intricately detailed faces, and the face on each coin in the purse was unique -- no two were alike.

In addition, the stones and the coins radiated a very, very faint aura of evil, to the party paladin and cleric... After I was done with the description, no one wanted to touch them.

...just describe what you do and state whether you wish there was more or less of it, or if it is just the right amount for games you like, please.

In the Games I run, there's usually just the right amount. I'd like to have a little more flavor and description within combats, but that can be tough to do without becoming repetitive.

More often for me, it's less about how much flavor, as opposed to how the flavor is applied. I prefer having less detailed background information in most aspects of the game, while saving detailed information and descriptions for the actual gameplay at the table.

 

[xechnao]

Since the thread seems to be getting away from describing and seems to be more about justifying without describing, or posting about definitions of flavor or bemoaning the difficulty of defining flavor, I thought I might repeat a portion of the original post.





So, just post about some of the details (not mechanics) used in your game to evoke some flavor. Are building descriptions prevalent and how so? Are their people that populate the world detailed in their language and culture and how so? Are the physical particulars of treasures expansively portrayed and how so? No need to use a combination of comparison and pejorative to defend what you do, just describe what you do and state whether you wish there was more or less of it, or if it is just the right amount for games you like, please.

So you are asking about the level of world building minutia in a campaign or setting. Right? It is a Tetris(no flavor) versus Command&Conquer(high flavor) preference question.
Well as said before I think rpgs require flavor -as say every theatric play or kind of show: you cant have a play without flavor. It does not make much sense asking how much flavor you want in your show and if you are happy with its level. Rpgs are such. Card games are another type of game that the question you are making here could make sense. A Poker versus Magic the Gathering question is something that I can understand.

 

[Mark]

Well as said before (. . .)

That's a debate for another thread. Other people are fine with the premise. Please use the fork thread option rather than continue derailing this one.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Please describe the level of (flavor) detail you like in a game as well as the typical amount of flavor you actually wind up with in a game.

Depends on the game. Actually, it depends on the type of detail as well.

4e, for instance, is rich in detail about combat positioning. If I ever need to know how many feet away from which goblins I am, 4e's combat rules will help describe not only that, but also what lays in between us and what I would have to do to cross that gap and how, in 30 different ways, I can kill him and take his stuff.

4e, however, is not rich in detail about character development. If I want to take a character through a tragic arc, being ultimately destroyed in hopes and dreams by his own character flaws, 4e doesn't give me any help whatsoever.

A game should ideally be developed with a clarity of vision about what it wants to provide detail on, and why. HARN, for instance, is completely clear about its world simulation. It puts it right there on the label, so to speak: Play HARN, simulate adventures in a living breathing world!

D&D has had trouble articulating the reason for its own existence.

What I want will vary with the mood and seasons and goals of my group. Sometimes I want something adaptable and easy to use (T20, for instance)), sometimes I want something with a more specific vibe.

I don't like a system that is "good for everything" in general, unless I'm trying something that's weird enough that only a "good for everything" system will be able to handle it.

Rather, I prefer a system that is specifically and blatantly about achieving a certain experience.

FFZ (or the ZERO SYSTEM in general) with its character/narrative game play, for instance, wants to tell a story, and goes to great lengths to set that up. It is not a system for world simulation (except where such simulation helps tell the story). It is not a system for complex combat (except where such combat helps tell the story). It is not a system for detailed advancement (except where such advancement relates to character development). It gives you the appropriate details for playing a game and telling a story.

D&D4e, to me, seems to want to kill some goblins, and it goes to great lengths to provide extensive detail on how to go about doing that, but isn't concerned about world-building or character-building except in that they serve the central goal: killin' goblins.

V:tM is about scheming and manipulating and hiding, and it provides a lot of detail on how to go about doing that, but it's not concerned with killing goblins except in as that serves the goals of political machinations of the PC's.

T20 works when I don't have a more specific experience in mind (like I'd imagine GURPS would), but I prefer a system to have a goal, and to help me meet that goal. A dedicated hammer is better for nails than using the blunt end of a Swiss Army Knife.

 

[Galloglaich]

I'm a database programmer professionally, and for about 20 years I've been compiling a database of information about various pre-industrial historical cultures: material culture, art, weapons, economic and military structure, folklore, religion, military structure (including specific types of warrriors), political structure (including specific types of civil leaders, prophets, judges, sorcerers and the like) the economy - what kind of things these people bought and what they sold, and what kind of resources they had and what they made and etc. This also included tens of thousands of photographs of artifacts, (historical antiques where possible, accurate reproductions where not) transciptions of documents (such as the various eerie Grimoires of the European Renaissance) and hundreds of carefully selected photos of re-enactors wearing accurate period kit, not your run of the mill ren-faire stuff but the hard core obsessive people who are really doing it precisely right.

I've used this database as a resource when I published the weapon and armor encyclopedia for The Riddle of Steel as well as some other things I've written in the RPG industry, and most recently to construct the codex.

I always liked lifepath character generation ever since experiening Traveller as a kid in the early 80's, and around six or seven years ago I began to use my growing database as the basis of a sophitsitcated lifepath character generation software system, pretty much just for fun. I worked on it for about four years on and off and finally got it working how I wanted around last year. I let my friends use it to generate player characters for real games for the first time about six months ago.

So using this system you can make a character from 15th Century Japan, or 3rd Century BC Gallicia, or 9th Century Norway or whatever. As you generate your character events take place, some random some due to decisions you make. You can get in legal trouble or be injured, sieze booty in a raid, get captured or exiled, etc. etc. All the countries are loosely linked together in the same geographical world so you can travel from place to place (travelling takes a lot less time if you have a horse or a boat). While generating your character you can engage in avocations (hobbies) ranging from magical research to brawling in pubs to human sacrifice. You can go buy and sell things in various markets, recieve penance for their sins in churches or wallow in drunkeness in the town pubs or public baths.

When your character prints out it has a life history, it has realistic artefacts down to the smallest detail, and it has some built in flavor. For example a person who had been a butcher may have their old butcher knife and the slicing skills that go with it. Might also hate Spaniards since he was imprisoned by them for six months when he was 24. On print out, in theory, the system could translate characters into any system, 3.5 DnD, GURPS, HARN, Warhammer etc., though currently it only makes characters for my own houseruled version of D20 with the Codex combat rules.

Lately I've added to this system so that I can use it as a DM's aid, to generate markets and encounters on the fly. So for example last week when my players raided a Berber caravan, I was able to instantly generate a print out of all the stuff it carried and make a handfull of suitible NPCs. Later when they went to a dwarven trading post I was able to do another print out of what was available for sale there.


So I rely on this system to provide a lot of the flavor without having to spend a huge amount of time on it (any more). Everything has a built-in internal consistency, fits in appropriately on the economic level etc. and instead of being limited to a page or two of generic artefacts from the players handbook or DMG, I have the equivalent of hundreds of pages of possible artefacts and items, all specific to various regions and periods of history. I find all the realistic kit (and having carefully thought it out way, way in advance) comes in very handy and fleshes out the world in a very nuanced way, adding to the level of immersion a great deal. I plan to expand the uses of this database now that the hard part (the lifepath character generation) is largely finished and working.

G.

 

[Mark]

I'm a database programmer professionally, and for about 20 years I've been compiling a database of information about various pre-industrial historical cultures

Brilliant, and thanks for that G. Sadly other people up thread seem intent on trying to steer this toward edition specific topics so I an uncertain how much longer the thread will last. I appreciate the unbiased input.

 

[Mallus]

Here are some edition-free examples!

Setting 'flavor' from the initial player's handout:

One of the resident deities is the Eroded God – an enormous figure of carven stone, its features worn away long before it came staggering up out of the surf. It can’t actually speak in anything other than an unintelligible mumble, but the priesthood will happily translate for a modest fee. It’s worked a number of minor miracles over the years (curing the sick, calling down bolts from the blue, and such-like), but it has a difficult time staying focused on such tasks. By and large it is content to set in its temple, listening to music and watching scantily-clad women dance, making the occasional prophecy or pronouncement. Or what is assumed to be such.

'Flavor' in actual play -- done via campaign message board post.

[Me] - Yatagan goes inside and pays his respects to the god. He stoops, grunts, and otherwise struggles to remove his boots while leaving on the bulk of ironmongery. Setting his axe down next to his boots, Yatagan approaches the massive chair upon which the Eroded God sits in apparent boredom.

[DM] - Standing, the God would probably be about 20' tall. Seated as He is, He is still a fairly awesome sight. He's sprawled back on a marble throne, clutching a enormous cask of boiling ale in one hand, the vapors from which are coiling about His featureless head. On an elevated stage, a half dozen bored looking women are dancing, and occasionally removing an item of clothing.

As Yatagan enters, He straightens a little in His throne, and passes one hand back across His head.

[Me] - "Nice place" he says in a loud voice. Looking up at the Eroded God he adds, "Say, have you lost weight?" He then struggles further to kneel down, touching his snout to floor in reverence.

[DM] - "Abbabgobbamuuggaworgleduddapogengrumpicweilbagoodablegged. Burrumpuggeg."

The prelate dozing on a padded bench by the God's feet sits up, and barely manages to avoid toppling to the ground.

"The God speaks!" he calls out, frantically. "Ah...ah...'Greetings, brother. I offer My apologies for the trouble, and assure You that no offense was intended. The skeins of Fate are twisted, for She is'...ah...'...a woman of questionable virtue. Make Yourself at home, and would You like something to drink?'"

The priest is looking about frantically as he speaks, trying to determine exactly what the hells is going on.

 

[Galloglaich]

Sorry to dissapoint you Mark...

Wut he said.

I like flavour, I do. I don't want to do pnp Diablo. I HAVE Diablo for that. OTOH, I'm not trying to run Shakespeare either. Gimme something to kill, some dice to roll once in a while, just to feed the tactic monster, and I'm pretty much content to do whatever the party wants.

I can enjoy that kind of hack-slash-take type game well enough, I'm a pretty hard core gamer like most people here, and I've played my fair share of Icewind Dale and Diablo etc. But over the 25 years I've played RPGs on and off I've noticed three things:

1) the really fun games, the ones I can still remember, are the ones which had cool settings, roleplaying, drama etc. All the hacking and slashing and taking stuff just fades into the background.

2) the only people I know who really like those kind of hack / slash /take games are other hard core gamers. Mostly people who play DnD anyway, mostly males, mostly kind of geeky. Girls, people who you wouldn't think of as playing DnD etc. seem to fit in a lot better with games that have a little more setting, a little more logical reason for doing all the killing and taking, worlds that have to do with solving mysteries and interesting, plausible problems.

To compare it to a film analogy, it's kind of similar to the difference between someone who is willing to sit through, and may actually enjoy the latest made for Sci Fi Channel "Mansquito" or "Snakehead Terror" movie, vs. someone who would not sit through that but liked Blade Runner and Alien a lot. If I'm by myself I can sit through Mansquito, but if I was on a date I'd flip through that channel, but might still watch Alien.

3) I enjoy playing a lot more with a mixed group of mostly non gamers (one or two gamers can be helpful because of their gaming skillz) and at least a couple of girls. In the old old days of DnD most people I knew who played were in groups like this, mixed ages, male and female, some nerdy people some jocky people some punks or heavy metal kids or whatever. Not the group of guys you see hanging around the local hobby store.


To me, RPGs in general and DnD in particular seems to have been sort of captured by a certain type of hard core gamer, the changes in the rules have made the games tailored to a specific type of pay which reinforced this culture. i think this in turn made gaming increasingly into more and more of a niche thing for a certain demographc, which alienates people who don't like that type of play and tailoring the game more to their favorite 'comfort food' way more and more etc. It's sort of a vicious circle. I'd personally like to see DnD come back to a broader range of ways of playing and appeal to a broader group of people. DnD is supposed to be the generalist RPG game that introduces you to role playing games. There are already plenty of genre specific games for one you figue out you want to do a certain very specific type of thing like Lovecraft or comedy or vampires or whatever.

G.