The Flight Topic.

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Arrows and projectiles should be the biggest balancing factor for flight.

I disagree. Sucking in melee is already supposed to be a balancing factor for wizards; making it so that melee-focused characters can never use their best techniques is probably overpowered, and certainly changes the focus of the class.

I tend to think flying should require concentration or chanting until at least double-digit levels, maybe even until epic levels. Maybe the simplest option would be to make it like Invisibility, so you can't attack or be attacked with it active. (Regardless, it should come with an auto-feather fall so getting knocked out of the air isn't an insta-crater.)

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Flight worked fine in B/X & AD&D, so return to that treatment wouldn't be bad. The idea that flying and chewing gum at the same time causes you to crash was huge turnoff and not needed IMHO.

One thing the game might benefit from as a balancing factor is that casters incur some sort of penalty for casting while they have other spells active.

For example the mage with protection from normal missiles, minor globe of invulnerability, stoneskin, and improved invisibility takes to the air. There is no penalty for all these magics being 'turned on' simultaneously.

If having spells with lasting durations in play made casting other spells more difficult, with mounting penalties for multiple castings, the flying issues would be kept in better check.

Let's impose a limit of one active spell cast by a person and one active magic item effect per character. By active spell I mean anything that affects you personally and has duration (so not summons or conjurations). By magic item effect I mean the same, anything that affects you personally and with duration (always on is a duration, +1 damage to an attack is not a duration).

 

[JamesonCourage]

1) About when do you want Fly to show up in spell lists: low level, high level, or epic?
Around level 7, but spell-wise only for spellcasters that specialize in movement. Non-specialists don't receive flight.

2) When do you want Long term Flight spells and magic items to be suggested to appear (if at all)?
I'm more open to this, since I don't see treasure needing to appear at any particular level. I'm okay with PCs having a huge income at level 1 (if they're nobility, for example), or being mostly broke with no magic items at level 15. I think it's more of a setting issue (though obviously it relates to balance... if it helps balance the game at level 7-12, throw them in at level 7-12).

3) What is your preferred balancing factor for Fly spell (control, duration, speed, maneuverability, action economy)?
Mainly action economy, but with a sprinkling of speed and duration. Make any ranged attack (spell or otherwise) take a full-round action (the hated full-round!) instead of a standard, and make it take at least a move action to stay in the air. That way, you can't do both (fly and make any ranged attack) unless you circumvent the restriction (Haste, special ability, feat, etc.).

4) Should Flight Magic even have a natural drawback?
Slower speed, less duration (obviously), and maybe even requires concentration to maintain.

5) Should maneuverability return?
Yes. Something less in-depth than 3.5. Pathfinder isn't terrible to me, but something simpler wouldn't hurt.

6) How much should the DMG discuss and provide information on dealing with flight (wind charts and effect, falling rules, flight skill checks)?
I'd like wind charts and effects, falling rules, and flight skill checks all in the PHB, so that players can know what to expect in the game without poking around the DMG. So, it should all be provided, but in the PHB.

7) Should the game encourage mundane tactics to combat hostile fliers or should it just encourage DMs to hand out flight or don't use flight?
It should encourage mundane tactics. Nets are fine, as are ranged attacks: make it so that if you're damaged, you need to make a check or fall. Makes fighting in the air a lot riskier.

8) Mundane flight in core (war balloons, gliders, airships, and planes)?
Core as in assumed? No. Core as in the main three books? Yes. It's not usually my cup of tea, but it could lead to some very interesting stuff for some people, and it's not at of the realm of fantasy to have dirigibles or the like.

 

[erleni]

Let's impose a limit of one active spell cast by a person and one active magic item effect per character. By active spell I mean anything that affects you personally and has duration (so not summons or conjurations). By magic item effect I mean the same, anything that affects you personally and with duration (always on is a duration, +1 damage to an attack is not a duration).

Could be a good idea. The main problems with our sorcerer in 4e started when he was invisible (improved), flying, stoneskinned and using true sight all at the same time.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Let's impose a limit of one active spell cast by a person and one active magic item effect per character. By active spell I mean anything that affects you personally and has duration (so not summons or conjurations). By magic item effect I mean the same, anything that affects you personally and with duration (always on is a duration, +1 damage to an attack is not a duration).

Or allow multiple active effects but have the penalty for producing further effects while others are still active mount quickly and be severe. I prefer diminishing returns over flat caps when possible.

That way if a wizard with brass balls that only has a 20% chance to get a spell off wants to try it anyway the odds will limit effectiveness and provide truly memorable moments when it can be pulled off.

 

[Minigiant]

Personally I think the best way to do it is to give each flight spell or ability a definite job.

Each flight spell is missing either combat/casting ability, speed, action economy, maneuverability, and/or duration. You can't get all 4 until epic as a spell, theme, or class/racial feature.

Gaseous Form is missing combat/casting ability.
Fly has bad action economy and short duration.
Air Walk is no faster than your ground speed.
Alter self has poor maneuvering and poor action economy.

 

[Remathilis]

I'd like to see flight hit around 10th level. For sake of comparison.

Levitation: 5th
Fly 10th
Teleport 15th
Teleport without Error 18th
Scry 7th
Invisibility 3rd or 5th
Improved Invisibility 10th
Disintergrate 15th

On the Priestly side
Cures Disease 7th
Raise Dead 13th
Ressurect 20th
Heal 15th
Animate Dead 7th

D&D's problem was it made up the spell lists as it went along so it had no clear end goal for power. Spells like disintergrate, raise dead, or teleport look good around spell level 5 or 6 when spells only go up that high, but ar miserably out of place in a 9 spell level game.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'm not even really a fan of flight magic at all. The idea of Wizards casting a spell and then magically floating through the air effortlessly has never been my preferred style of fantasy... Flight is way too distinctive and powerful of an effect for it to be granted by the casual use of an easily learnt and cast spell.

If you ask me, the the easiest and best way to gain flight should be from a flying mount like a pegasus, gryphon, wyvern, or dragon. Otherwise, it should mostly be provided by a significant expenditure of resource (like a 3E Prestige class, a 4E paragon path, or maybe a race with innate flight ability). Overall, I think it should be more the realm of the mounted warrior and maybe the shapeshifing druid (again, with a flight-form specialization of some kind), rather than the generalized spellcaster.

Flight rules should never depend on things like 3E's absurd maneuverability rules, wing speed, flight skill checks, or what have you. All of those things just slow the game down and don't have any meaningful upsides.

Finally, flight should certainly have significant drawbacks and countermeasures, to prevent characters from being helpless against a flying foe. Honestly, it would be nice to simply handwave away the idea that fliers can always stay out of melee range, which should be trivial to do in a gridless system. Let the advantage of flight be in what it allows you to do, not what it protects you from.

 

[Shadeydm]

I disagree. Sucking in melee is already supposed to be a balancing factor for wizards; making it so that melee-focused characters can never use their best techniques is probably overpowered, and certainly changes the focus of the class.

I'm confused, I thought we were talking about when PCs should get flight sounds like your either talking about monsters or some sort of D&D PVP lol. Monsters have always had flight at even the earliest levels of the game stirges come to mind right away. Of course for all I know 4E might have made them 10 HD paragon level monsters but prior to 4E I'm pretty sure thats a flying monster for even the lowest levels.

 

[Derren]

One thing you have to consider that flying also solves the "problem" of how melee characters fight flying monsters.
As D&D never really supported the use of multiple weapons by characters you either need to nerf flying monsters so much that they are more like hopping monsters or you need to give the melee characters a way to get close to a flying enemy.