The flip side of the insta-kill discussion... What good are mooks?

[Calico_Jack73]

There is a huge discussion going on right now about whether insta-kill creatures and situations have a place in someone's game. How about the flip side of it, namely Mooks? Mooks are the red shirted ensigns and the stormtroopers in a campaign. They represent the lackeys that are meant to be killed in droves by the PCs on their way to face the BBG. Is there really any reason to bother with them if they are just meant to be killed and not offer any challenge? Wouldn't it be better to just tell your high level PCs that they kill the 20 goblin mooks rather than waste valuable gaming time running through the combat?

 

[Flyspeck23]

There is a huge discussion going on right now about whether insta-kill creatures and situations have a place in someone's game. How about the flip side of it, namely Mooks? Mooks are the red shirted ensigns and the stormtroopers in a campaign. They represent the lackeys that are meant to be killed in droves by the PCs on their way to face the BBG. Is there really any reason to bother with them if they are just meant to be killed and not offer any challenge? Wouldn't it be better to just tell your high level PCs that they kill the 20 goblin mooks rather than waste valuable gaming time running through the combat?

Probably. Most high-level characters won't ever get hit or take damage from such opponents (a natural 20 once in a while, but nothing lethal).

OTOH, arcane spellcasters love to use their fireballs, and it would be cheating to let that happen off-screen.


But that question never arises IMC, because there the PCs are the red shirted ensigns

 

[Crothian]

Sometiomes what looks like a mook encounter, can really be much more. Sometimes the Mooks get lucky, sometimes the PCs over estimate themsleves, and sometimes the mooks actually have a good plan.

I never do things off camera. If the party gets to slaughter some mooks, then let them. Sometimes it just feels good to be able to do that, or the party feels sorry for the hordes they are slaughtering. Turn the mook encounter into something special. Let the Pcs see that the goblins know they can't win, but try any way. Show the goblins sacrificing themselves becasue they beleive they have to. Give the encounter some depth.

 

[smetzger]

There is a huge discussion going on right now about whether insta-kill creatures and situations have a place in someone's game. How about the flip side of it, namely Mooks? Mooks are the red shirted ensigns and the stormtroopers in a campaign. They represent the lackeys that are meant to be killed in droves by the PCs on their way to face the BBG. Is there really any reason to bother with them if they are just meant to be killed and not offer any challenge? Wouldn't it be better to just tell your high level PCs that they kill the 20 goblin mooks rather than waste valuable gaming time running through the combat?

If its _only_ mooks than the encounter is most likely a waste of time.

However, if you combine mooks and more resilient foes in one encounter, and don't give the players OOC knowledge about the difference betweeen the two, they have their purpose.

 

[S'mon]

Hmm - I think there are 2 kinds of mooks - "scenery" mooks and "stormtrooper" mooks.

1. Scenery mooks - in D&D, these are the guys at least 8 CRs below the PCs, the ones you get no XP for in 3e. 1st level goblins vs 12th level PCs. You see them in anime a lot, until recently they were rare in other genres. Not only can they not win, they can't even significantly harm the PCs. I think it's pretty much ok to ignore these - in a mass battle, it makes no difference if the 13th level barbarian PC kills a dozen Warrior-1s on his way to showdown with the enemy champion, or if in a long-term campaign high-level PCs are assumed to occasionally meet & beat a few goblin raiders while patrolling their dominion. They're about as significant as ants in the backyard. The only case where I'd advocate running a fight with these is if for some reason there are vast numbers of them with zero sense of self preservation who are impelled to keep throwing themselves at the PCs no matter how many die - 500 zombies, say. In this case where they might actually harm the PCs, ok run the fight, but if you have a Battlesystem to use so it doesn't take 5 hours, that's the way to go.

2. Stormtrooper mooks - in Star Wars the enemy grunts are vastly inferior to the heroes, but Luke doesn't slaughter 8 of them with every swing of his lightsaber. They remain a significant threat. In most games other than D&D, all mooks remain in this category. In D&D they're the 6th level orc warriors who form the Dark Lord's bodyguard, or half-fiendish dire orc vile paragons or somesuch in a where's-the-cheese game. For these, I'd definitely say roll the fight. Try to play them intelligently (within their limits) and entertainingly. If they're elite troops they may fight to the death, but they have a sense of self preservation, and they may make mistakes. If it takes 8 of them to kill a PC, I'd say that was about right for a regular cinematic game. If it would take 400, they're scenery. If it would take 2, they're not mooks.

Edit: S'mon's scenery mook rule: let the PC kill as many mooks as seems plausible (or roll 3d6 or whatever). For each mook killed, roll a d20. On a '20' that mook wounded the PC, doing normal weapon damage, before being killed. The way 3.5 movement & combat rules work, this approximates pretty closely to what happens anyway.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Mooks are the red shirted ensigns and the stormtroopers in a campaign. They represent the lackeys that are meant to be killed in droves by the PCs on their way to face the BBG.

Ah! What you're talking about are what Bobby "The Brain" Heenan so eloquently refers to as "ham & eggers"! LoL

 

[diaglo]

as i was saying in the other thread every death has meaning.

even "accidental" ones.

i am my character for the few hours i roleplay.

so if i encounter 20 mooks. i want to play it.

they may get lucky...they most probably will not.

plus it helps fill out the world...just like Crothian said...why are they doing this?

as my character i ask the 5 w's and 1 h....who, what, when, where, why and how.

it makes the game fun for me.

 

[Kestrel]

as i was saying in the other thread every death has meaning.

even "accidental" ones.

i am my character for the few hours i roleplay.

so if i encounter 20 mooks. i want to play it.

they may get lucky...they most probably will not.

plus it helps fill out the world...just like Crothian said...why are they doing this?

as my character i ask the 5 w's and 1 h....who, what, when, where, why and how.

it makes the game fun for me.

If you're a caster, you better watch out for mobs of mooks. In the right situation, they can overbear and grapple you to the ground.

8th level sorceror in my game got jumped by a village of commoners. He hesitated on blowing them up and almost got grappled and killed. Cracked me up

 

[kigmatzomat]

How about the flip side of it, namely Mooks? Mooks are the red shirted ensigns and the stormtroopers in a campaign. ... Is there really any reason to bother with them if they are just meant to be killed and not offer any challenge? Wouldn't it be better to just tell your high level PCs that they kill the 20 goblin mooks rather than waste valuable gaming time running through the combat?

Depends. In open field combat, a unit of 20 mooks is there to do occassional over-bearing attempts, fire masses of arrows doing those lovely x4 crits, and provide moving background. As support to challenging combatants they provide flankers and some degree of cover.

However 20 mooks make decent guards. Oh sure, you can kill them, but can the plated paladin sneak past them? Really? Even through the anti-magic'd gatehouse?

Think of them as relatively inexpensive security systems or some variant of temporary hit points for the main threat.

Of course I generally field mixed level forces. On average my large units are 10% 1-2nd level, 60% 3-4th level, 20% 5th-6th level and 10% higher. The notion is that 1st and 2nd level troops die or level quickly. By 4th level most wise up and retire or muster out. The rest tend to become officers which are often non-combatant REMF classes (i.e. aristocrat or expert).

Elite forces are 3-6 levels higher (you must be this tall to ride this ride) with the occassional super-hit squad, but those tend to be 6-10 "man" groups instead of the thousand-strong battalions.

 

[Altalazar]

Mooks can harrass! Mooks can annoy! Mooks give you a reason to have Great Cleave!

Up with Mooks!

Especially if they are well organized - they can really give even a high level group some headaches while the BBEG is thrown into the mix, to boot!

They can also threaten innocents! So if your group cares about such things, you can't be tossing fireballs in when you'd be frying those pesky innocent bystanders / victims. And you can't just ignore the mooks there, because of those same pesky IB/Vs!