The flip side of the insta-kill discussion... What good are mooks?

Henry said:
.. snip.. what is the purpose of Mooks? To let the PC's artistically show off their superior combat skills. ... snip ....
This is in a nutshell the real purpose of mooks at higher level. These are those enemys the party can show off on, do intresting manuevers that would be to risky in a tough battle, and basicly get a chance to show off their power. The chance to feel like the power the party has earned is worth it.

Monte Cook, in his dm's only column on high level gaming third point was Let them Kick but (sometimes). link
This is what mooks are for.
 

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Kormydigar said:
Hoody Hoo!! I'm gonna make sure I have 8 beggars with me at all times, this rawks!!! KODT I believe. I'll take choc. chip :)

Hey, no stealing my cookie :D
 
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Liolel said:
This is in a nutshell the real purpose of mooks at higher level. These are those enemys the party can show off on, do intresting manuevers that would be to risky in a tough battle, and basicly get a chance to show off their power. The chance to feel like the power the party has earned is worth it.

Yeah. Feats like Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave tend not to come up very often when you're fighting CR-Appropriate opponents. Cleave, sure; Great Cleave, not so much.

But those feats allow the high-level fighter to destroy all who dare stand in his path and bathe in the blood of his enemies when instead of two glabrezu, he's facing four or five dozen goblins. It's a little like the old 1E rule that a Fighter got one attack per level per round against creatures with less than 1 HD.

But if your mook-demolition takes place off-camera, then there's no major difference between the Fighter with WWA or GC, and the Fighter with Mounted Archery and Improved Combat Expertise. Sure, they're both going to win... but one Fighter is ideally-geared to slaughtering hordes of mooks, and the other is just a high-level Fighter. Not allowing the WWAer to roll his dice makes his feat choice essentially obsolete, since he never gets to see it in action.

-Hyp.
 

I love to throw hordes of mooks at my PCs... though most "mooks" range from level 2-6 and the "officers" top at level 8-10. Without magical equipment, I can put a big group of mooks in military formation against my PCs and let them enjoy their otherwise puny AoE spells :D
 

mook utility

Mooks do serve a purpose. For mid-level parties, they can both allow fighters to use their cool theme feats, as mentioned, like Great Cleave, but can also help the DM.

Let's say the party doesn't have an uber Great Cleaver; the judge can often entice the party wizard into using up a spell or two to wipe out or cause a retreat of the mooks.

Granted, this is of no consequence versus an 18th level sorceress with a Cloak +6, but to a non-specialist wizard who's only 7-10th level, burning a fireball or similar spell taps into his daily arsenal.

Now, whether getting players to waste buffs, rages, etc. is good or bad depends on cash flow and campaign style, and now-a-days, everyone can't simply walk around with permanent stat buffs (1 min. level) but mooks can serve a purpose.
 

Kweezil said:
What ungodly amalgam of the rules has BA created?! That was a particularly good strip :D

Kormydigar said:
Hoody Hoo!! I'm gonna make sure I have 8 beggars with me at all times, this rawks!!! KODT I believe. I'll take choc. chip :) Yeah mooks are fun once in awhile just so the adventurers can feel truly badass.
Ah, TWO cookies! :D
'Let's go subdue a dragon!'
*sound of BA's head smacking the table*
 

Hypersmurf is on the right track: Mooks keep variety in the combat portions of the game and demonstrate the value of certain feat choices. The guy with Improved Trip, Close Quarters Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization, Prone Attack, Combat Expertise, Sunder, Imp Disarm, Spring Attack, etc. is very good at small scale confrontations with single enemies or small groups of foes. The guy with Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon is very good at large scale confrontations with groups of weaker foes. Including mooks in a game plays to the weaknesses of the first strategy and the strengths of the second just like lone boss fights play to the strengths of the first strategy and the weaknesses of the second.

The same is true for spellcasters. The armies of mooks play to the strengths of area effect and battlefield control spellcasters. The Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fogs, Walls of Ice, Walls of Force, Fireballs, lightning bolts, cones of cold, Firestorm, Flame Strike, etc are made for tackling mooks. On the other hand, single foe combats play to the strengths of save or die/save or screw specialists. Dispel Magic, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of exhaustion, Hold Person, blindness/deafness, disintegrate, enervation, slay living, destruction, finger of death, feeblemind, etc are most useful when facing single foes or small groups.

As Henry said, mooks also serve the purpose of giving PCs a chance to display their superior skills. If you're playing Conan the barbarian, it doesn't really work with the concept if every battle you fight is against a powerhouse monster or NPC of roughly similar skill. You want to be able to wade through a legion of enemy soldiers once in a while.

Speaking of wading through a legion of bad guys, that takes a bit of time so if you want to run bad guys who don't necessarily have the ability to stand up to the party's front liners while they do their bad stuff, you'll need a variety of mooks and bodyguards to give them pause.

And there's another thing that mooks do: they show off the power of buffing spells on NPCs. I wrote an encounter with a single druid/Tamer of Beasts with 16 badgers as his animal companions. That didn't look very frightening...until he cast bear's heart on them. Similarly, I ran an encounter once where a group of commoners with bardsong (amplified through a natural horn), bear's heart, and a variety of other buffs made them into quite respectable fighting machines.

And that brings us to the last thing mooks can do: they can humble PCs. When a group of commoners starts seriously threatening a 10th level party, it gives them a bit of respect for the angry mob.

So mooks reward different PC melee and spellcaster feat and spell choices. They make possible different bad guy strategies and abilities. They offer the PCs a chance to show off their stuff and they can also humble PCs.

Long live the mooks!
 

Hypersmurf said:
Yeah. Feats like Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave tend not to come up very often when you're fighting CR-Appropriate opponents. Cleave, sure; Great Cleave, not so much.

But those feats allow the high-level fighter to destroy all who dare stand in his path and bathe in the blood of his enemies when instead of two glabrezu, he's facing four or five dozen goblins. It's a little like the old 1E rule that a Fighter got one attack per level per round against creatures with less than 1 HD.

But if your mook-demolition takes place off-camera, then there's no major difference between the Fighter with WWA or GC, and the Fighter with Mounted Archery and Improved Combat Expertise. Sure, they're both going to win... but one Fighter is ideally-geared to slaughtering hordes of mooks, and the other is just a high-level Fighter. Not allowing the WWAer to roll his dice makes his feat choice essentially obsolete, since he never gets to see it in action.

-Hyp.

I think 12th level PCs vs dozens of CR 1/2 scenery mooks is best done off-camera if there's no 'point' to it - eg it's not the precursor to a 'real' fight - but I do like to see the 12th level Fighter PCs occasionally 2h-power-attack great-cleaving through squads of elite CR 5 stormtrooper mooks, it makes me all warm & fuzzy inside. :cool:
 

Unleash the horde and let the PCs wade through limbs and blood!

I'm partial for letting the PCs down a few dozen low-CRs when appropriate. In such instances, tactics and terrain/obsticles are the real threat, not the numbers themselves; combined with the items that Hypersmurf points out regarding GC and WWA, the PCs can be in some serious danger.

(Anyone remember the Kobold Lair example in a Dragon article a few years back... High ground advantage, tight entrance forcing single-file entry by the PCs, pits, nets, falling rocks, flaming coctails, wasp nests use as grenades, places that appeared to grant cover or permit retreat actually filled with green slime or yellow mold... Scarry, folks... Really friggin' scarry.)
 

I must say I find all this talk of slaughtering mooks and killing us by the dozen most disconcerting (though it was nice to hear that, after all, mooks do have a purpose :p )

Mook
http://www.themook.net
All sorts of geeky gamer goodness!
 

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