The Forester class (and 15 related feats)

[Crothian]

Hey there, buddy.

Which would you prefer to see, of these two options:
1) Dropping the forester bonus feats received at 6th, 12th, and 18th level, or
2) Reducing the Skill Points per level to 6 + Int modifier?

I'm considering one or the other, but not both. I think the forester IS superior on his own turf, which was sort of the point. Outside of the woods, I think the standard classes trounce it. And the class was meant to be as versatile as possible, so as to be easily customizable as possible. I don't understand how to take that as a criticism. Enlighten me?

Hey there, yourself.

I'd reduce the amount of skill points. I'd go that route because of the number of class skills you have is not as many as a rogue. You have 19, rouges have 31.

This guy is superior in the woods, no doubt about it. The versatile remark was in regards to the high number of skill points and all the free feats. We don't see that in any of the core classes. Many get some good abilities, but these are locked in stone. That's all I was talking about. Sorry, it was a little more cryptic then intended.

A few minor additions: Are darts really a hunting weapon? Personally, I have no idea. For Armor you might want to add Medium just so they can get Hide Armor. I think Acclimated should apply to either hot of cold extremes. If you did that I'd suggest uping the bonus to +6. Feral Senses I'd condider making +3 since it only works in natural surroundings. Otherwise there is no reason not to take Alertness, and then only take this if one feels the need the extra bonus in the wilderness. What about having Mountaineer increase climbing speedas well?

I will admit the class is growing one me and I was probably a little too harsh in my earlier criticism.

EDIT: Stupid keystrokes

 

[sepulchrave]

Hi Dagredhel.

I like it. A lot. I've looked over countless (and I mean, countless) ranger variants in the past year and a half, and if there are any "Outdoorsman" type classes out there that are better than this one - specifically in terms of customizability - then I haven't found them.

I am in general accord with the idea that the skill points should be reduced to 6/level - not because it trespasses on the rogue's turf, but because of balance considerations. 6 is still very high.

I also think that the point about falling damage was well made, and that there should be a cap on the maximum distance. The class needs heavy playtesting to see if any other glitches materialise - they are very easy to overlook when the class is in the conceptual stage. Other than that, I think you've got a winner. The template is eminently flexible, but also offers a unique flavour and feel.

Lastly, if the number of bonus feats seems to diminish the "uniqueness" of the Fighter to those trapped in a dogmatic mindset, change the name to "special ability" and that should quiet their grumblings

 

[Dagredhel]

Thanks for the pat on the back, Sepulchrave. I appreciate it. Spurred on by your comments, I edited the skill progression, reducing it as discussed, and changed the Cat Fall feat as well. I hope the revision is more palatable. I think I might have meant to get back to that one, and then never did, but in any case, it was awful as originally written, as was kindly pointed out.

Crothian, I included the dart for the sake of Small sized characters. I don't have any historical knowledge with respect to the weapon's use, whether as a hunting weapon or tool of war. My experience with darts is limited to the barroom. But I figured it wouldn't hurt to include it. Its only a DART, for chrissakes.
And what would you say to making Alertness prerequisite to the Feral Senses feat?

 

[Crothian]

Alertness as a prerequite is fine by me.

 

[lobo]

Varient Ranger

Below is a class I made up, perhaps it will give you some ideas.

Wilderness warrior
The below class is a non spell casting Ranger. Some charaters are very good woodsman but certainly have no spell casting ability. The below class solves this problem. A multiclassed character could certainly do many things along the same lines but the class below allows for a better wilderness flavor.

Wilderness Warrior:

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: As PHB Ranger
Class Skills: As PHB Ranger including bluff and sense motive
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: AS PHB Ranger
Saves: As PHB Ranger
BAB: As PHB Ranger
Special Enemy Table: As PHB with the ability to switch-out favored enemy bonuses

Level Special
----- ------------
1 Track, 1st favored enemy, survival
2 bonus feat
3
4 bonus combat feat
5 2nd favored enemy
6
7 bonus feat
8
9
10 3rd favored enemy, bonus combat feat
11
12
13 bonus feat
14
15 4th favored enemy
16 bonus combat feat
17
18
19 bonus feat
20 5th favored enemy


Track: A Wilderness Warrior gains Track as a bonus feat.

Survivor: A Wilderness Warrior gains a bonus of +2 initiative +2 Wilderness lore.

Favored Enemy: As PHB Ranger with exception to the added switch-out ability. The favored enemy switch-out ability allows the Wilderness Warrior to trade different levels of special enemy bonuses. For example a 15th level Ranger could switch his first favored enemy bonus to a new selection upon obtaining level 15.

Bonus Feats: A Wilderness Warrior gains a bonus feat at levels: (2, 7, 13, 19). These bonus feats must be drawn from the following list: Alertness, Animal Affinity, Endurance, Extra Favored Enemy, Favored Enemy Critical, Favored Enemy Strike, Forester, Great Fortitude, Horsemanship, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Run, Sharp Eyed, Skill Focus, Stealthy, and Supernatural Blow.

Bonus Combat Feats: Same as Fighter bonus feats in the PHB, these feats are gained at levels: (4, 10, 16).

A Wilderness Warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

* Wilderness Warrior Bonus Feat Clarifications:

Alertness (+2 Listen +2 Spot),
Animal Affinity (+2 Animal Empathy +2 Animal Handling),
Forester (+2 Wilderness Lore, +2 knowledge Nature),
Horsemanship (+2 Handle Animal + 2 Ride)
Sharp Eyed (+2 Search +2 Spot),
Stealthy (+2 Move Silently +2 Hide)

Skill Focus: the Wilderness Warrior may receive a +3 competence bonus to any Wilderness Warrior class skill

 

[Dagredhel]

I made some minor edits, as noted below the class description. Any comments on the revised Cat Fall feat?

 

[Feliath]

Not that my opinion carries much weight around here - I'm generally content to lurk, which I've been doing quite some time - but this class, I think, is great. I see no real balance issues with it, and it has a distinct feel, far moreso than the PHB ranger.

The thing I have the biggest problem with is the construction of some of the new feats, though most struck me as unusually well balanced - despite that I'm an immense stickler for balance.

A pet peeve of mine is all these feats that emulate Alertness and give a +2 bonus to two skills, or variants of this method. This might be an oft-vented opinion, but still: the setup makes Skill Focus redundant; take Surefooted as an example. I would get rid of those feats, but then, this class isn't being made to please me specifically; if I use it in my campaign I'll just ignore feats of the type.
Favored Terrain, like Alertness itself, is an exception to the peeve, mostly becuse it's so well in line with the character type, although I'd consider making it a special forester ability instead of a feat, in order to make it exclusive to the class. (In the case of Alertness I percieve a clear difference to the other such feats; a difference only one other person I've talked to also sees.)

One feat of an altogether different type also struck me as a bit off; this may be a better founded piece of criticism: Is Ford really useful? I mean, how often do the characters really wade? Sure, one might say that it's the DM's responsibility to see to it that he gets mileage from the thing, but I see potential for it quickly becoming very contrived - "Oh, look, another stream we need to cross. Are those hobgoblins hiding in the rushes? Again?".
Concise version of above: Compared to almost all other feats, Ford seems to have a very limited field of use. I'd consider fiddling with or getting rid of it.

Oh, one more thing, some specific praise: I LOVE the weapon selection. It's fantastic. No swords is brilliant. Fricken' A.

/Feliath - opinions, opinions!

 

[Irda Ranger]

This is great! I have been tinkering around with an Alt.Ranger that used 'hunting' weapons, but I never thought of making such "wilderness" feats that makes this class much more customizable! Very inspirational!

One thing that struck me though is that there are few Wilderness Feat "Trees". As Feliath mentioned before, these Feats are exceptionally well balanced (kudos), however its ok that some feats are better than others, as long as you can't get them until pre-reqs are taken. As it stands there are only a couple feats (if that I think) that a 1st level Forrester can't take. Sure, a high level Forrester has more of them, but they are all still available to the 1st level folks.

I guess what I was thinking is that there should be Wilderness Feat equivalants to Great Cleave and Spring Attack. Something to look forward to that no low level Forrester can do.

I'll put my time into thinking about this, but I just wanted to get the idea out there so that other creative folks could toss out some ideas. I imagine a good starting point would be to ask yourself "What could a truly legendary Forrester do that only years of experience could teach?" Immediately the easy ideas (like superior versions of Tracking, the Sensory Feats and the Survival Feats come to mind), but what else is there? I'll make a new post in a couple days once I have had time to think about it.

Irda Ranger

PS -

Cat Fall as it's written is too powerful, the Forester could fall 100' and take 1/2 damage no way. I would say falls up to 20' with an improved version for upto 40'. Even a real cat after falling X feet will tense up and go splat.

Just on an odd note, the strange truth is is that the farther a cat falls, the more likely it is to survive. A three story fall can kill a cat that doesn't have time to position itself correctly and land on its feet. A fall of ten stories gives the cat time to position itself correctly and use its body as a parachute, slowing its maximum velocity to the point that it can land safely (raise a glass to having limbs skeletally detached from your spine). Of course, I agree with your argument, since neither man nor elf is a cat.

 

[Feliath]

Of course, I agree with your argument, since neither man nor elf is a cat.

Useless fact: I, also knowing that which you mention, actually played around with the idea that elves' legs weren't attached to their spines in my homebrew. Then I realized the disastrous effects this would have on biped anatomy and dropped it.

Feliath - why'd I even bother mentioning this?

 

[Dagredhel]

One thing that struck me though is that there are few Wilderness Feat "Trees". As Feliath mentioned before, these Feats are exceptionally well balanced (kudos), however its ok that some feats are better than others, as long as you can't get them until pre-reqs are taken. As it stands there are only a couple feats (if that I think) that a 1st level Forrester can't take. Sure, a high level Forrester has more of them, but they are all still available to the 1st level folks.

I guess what I was thinking is that there should be Wilderness Feat equivalants to Great Cleave and Spring Attack. Something to look forward to that no low level Forrester can do.

I'll put my time into thinking about this, but I just wanted to get the idea out there so that other creative folks could toss out some ideas. I imagine a good starting point would be to ask yourself "What could a truly legendary Forrester do that only years of experience could teach?" Immediately the easy ideas (like superior versions of Tracking, the Sensory Feats and the Survival Feats come to mind), but what else is there? I'll make a new post in a couple days once I have had time to think about it.

Okay, you caught me, Irda Ranger. The truth is, the one really good idea that I had for a feat 'tree' was the progression that I made the 'One with the Wilderness' class ability. Oh, I came up with plenty of nifty ideas. But upon reflection, it seemed to me that choosing Skill Mastery in a particular skill when it became available was always a better choice than taking a bonus applicable only to a given application of that skill. Does that make sense?