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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9287251" data-attributes="member: 7026594"><p>The page I just showed you, as I said, is from the 1974 original D&D set (Holmes is from three years later). The original rules have Orcs in the Neutral and Chaotic columns. It's one of the underlined entries. </p><p></p><p>I'm not disputing that Chaotic was often treated as synonymous with evil. I'm just pointing out two things. 1) Orcs when they originally appeared were both under Neutral and Chaotic. 2) Orcs have never, in any edition of D&D that I'm aware of, been "always evil".</p><p></p><p>Oh, and now that you make me re-read, your assertions about evil and Detect Evil in AD&D are incorrect too. "<em>back in AD&D, there wasn't any easy way to distinguish between fundamentally evil, like a demon, and evil-by-culture, like an orc (both would ping to a detect evil spell).</em>" No. A demon or undead pings for detect evil, per page 60 of the DMG (Detection of Evil and Good) and an orc would not, as they're not an inherently evil magical creature. Regular living creatures don't ping for Detect Evil unless they're at least 8th level/HD, very strong in their alignment, and currently intent on actions within that alignment. Know Alignment picks up Evil more easily, but still "it must be a great evil or a strong good to be detected."</p><p></p><p>Anyway, this is all a tangent. My intent is just to point out that these guys' take on orcs is not very well supported by the original texts in the first place. Frickin' Gary in the 70s had a more nuanced take on alignment than "Detect Evil and kill 'em all", as these guys seem to think is the "trve authentic old school grognard way". </p><p></p><p>It's not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9287251, member: 7026594"] The page I just showed you, as I said, is from the 1974 original D&D set (Holmes is from three years later). The original rules have Orcs in the Neutral and Chaotic columns. It's one of the underlined entries. I'm not disputing that Chaotic was often treated as synonymous with evil. I'm just pointing out two things. 1) Orcs when they originally appeared were both under Neutral and Chaotic. 2) Orcs have never, in any edition of D&D that I'm aware of, been "always evil". Oh, and now that you make me re-read, your assertions about evil and Detect Evil in AD&D are incorrect too. "[I]back in AD&D, there wasn't any easy way to distinguish between fundamentally evil, like a demon, and evil-by-culture, like an orc (both would ping to a detect evil spell).[/I]" No. A demon or undead pings for detect evil, per page 60 of the DMG (Detection of Evil and Good) and an orc would not, as they're not an inherently evil magical creature. Regular living creatures don't ping for Detect Evil unless they're at least 8th level/HD, very strong in their alignment, and currently intent on actions within that alignment. Know Alignment picks up Evil more easily, but still "it must be a great evil or a strong good to be detected." Anyway, this is all a tangent. My intent is just to point out that these guys' take on orcs is not very well supported by the original texts in the first place. Frickin' Gary in the 70s had a more nuanced take on alignment than "Detect Evil and kill 'em all", as these guys seem to think is the "trve authentic old school grognard way". It's not. [/QUOTE]
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