The game police, they live inside of my head

[Glyfair]

That leads me to number two. What other roleplaying games were around in August of '79? Not many right? Now how many could have possibly fit that "realism-simulation school" of "hobby games" to which Gary is referring? Maybe one? two?

1973

Dungeons & Dragons

1975
Boot Hill (TSR)
Empire of the Petal Throne (TSR)
En Garde! (GDW)
Tunnels & Trolls (Flying Buffalo)

1976

Bunnies & Burrows (FGU)
Metamorphosis Alpha (TSR)
Starfaring (Flying Buffalo)

1977

AD&D (TSR - Monster Manual)
The Arduin Grimoire (Self-published)
Bifrost (Davco/UK)
Chivalry & Sorcery (FGU)
D&D Basic (TSR)
The Fantasy Trip (Megagaming) - Melee & Wizardry at this point
Flash Gordon and the Warriors of Mongo (FGU) - game w/roleplaying elements
The Realm of Yolmi (West Coast Games)
Space Patrol/Star Patrol (Gamescience)
Superhero: 2044 (Self-published)
Traveller (GDW)

1978

Adventures in Fantasy (Excalibre Games)
Gamma World (TSR)
High Fantasy (Fantasy Productions)
John Carter, Warlord of Mars (Heritage) skirmish game with some RPG rules added
Legacy (Legacy Press)
Runequest (Chaosium)

1979 (Can't speak to pre or post Aug)

Bushido (Tyr Games)
Commando (SPI)
Gangster (FGU)
Heroes (Tabletop Games/UK)
Spacequest (Tyr Games)
Starships & Spacemen (FGU)
Villains & Vigilantes (FGU)
Ysgarth (Ragnarok Enterprises)

 

[Glyfair]

As to the original point, RQ and C&S were definitely in the "realism/simulation" school (compared to D&D), as did Commando. Rolemaster doesn't hit until '80.

 

[Jhaelen]

If one player is winning, then the other players are losing? Am I understanding you correctly? How does that work?
[...]
My best guess as to what you mean is players playing the character optimization game to the detriment of the actual game. But I'm not exactly sure.

Well, yes, that's a major part of it.

E.g. we once had a player in our Ars Magica campaign who created a magus who was extremely min-maxed. He couldn't really do much of anything except cast a kind of 'death gaze spell'. He got his kicks from bullying everyone else by threatening to use that spell on them. He'd also use it regularly on commoners whenever he could get away with it. That seriously sucked all fun out of the game for everyone involved.

The other major part is trying to win against the other players. By being a) more powerful than them and b) actively playing against them. Has noone else ever played in a game where the party's rogue led everyone else into a deathtrap to loot their corpses?

Things like this happened quite often in our AD&D 1st/2nd.ed. times. Several DMs quit their games because of disruptive players. There often was no longer a point in trying to go adventuring - there was so much infighting that it was useless to prepare anything.

 

[howandwhy99]

I wasn't sure if I should bother the man or not, but I decided to go ahead and ask Mr. Gygax himself. I know I'll take whatever comments he offers as his true intentions regardless.

Jhaelen - Ugh. I've heard stories like that before. My own thoughts about winning at the game were given above. They are certainly not player vs. player or player vs. DM. I won't discount the first style, if everyone in the group prefers it, but the second just doesn't work IMO.

A game with rules behind the shield can go a long way to stop min-maxing. Especially when there really isn't much to min-max in the first place.