The Genius of D&D

[mmadsen]

The only way he'd see any kind of parity after your changes would be: A) His companions are too dumb to cast spells on him and the rogue steals all the gold so he can't get better equipment; or B) He's some kind of pevert who fights naked.

Or if it's a low-magic campaign. Or if it's a low-tech campaign. Or if we switch to armor-as-DR rather than armor-as-AC. If we're discussing hypothetical rules, there are a lot of elements to tweak.

Further, a lot of the things we consider standard in the current rules are there to balance things as they now stand. Since characters don't naturally advance in AC, there are plenty of magic items that grant AC bonuses.

 

[rounser]

3E could benefit a lot from spelling out more examples. For instance, the Fighter alone could be a Knight, an Archer, a Pikeman, a Hoplite, etc., and each of those Fighters would take different Feats and Skills.

That's a good idea. In fact, it would be useful to have an NPC generator that allowed specification of those kinds of roles as parameters.

 

[Melan]

IMO we should also consider something mmadsen was already touching on - that D&D, in its most common incarnation, is world-independent. Many, no, most new systems focus on a setting of their own and build their repertoire of adversaries, cool powers, etc. around this setting.

In his famous rant, John Wick bitched about the PHB being "just a collection of rules" - which, IMO, is one of the things that make D&D so attractive. With the plethora of goodies (monsters, spells and other assorted tools), one can make a world of his/her own.

It is kinda expected, too (unless you use a prewritten setting - which may sell well, but my gut feeling is that there are still more people playing in homebrews than in, say, FR or GH). You can build the standard "generic fantasy universe", or something based on Howard, or Caribbean pirates, or an Ice Age with psionic mammoths, etc. Sure, most of these homegrown worlds are like 1000s and 1000s of other D&D campaigns, but that isn't a problem, since this act of creation (and the attachment you have to your own "child") makes it worth more than something written by ten people in a year. Your own scratch paper is *always* more valuable, no matter what John "Hey! My orks ride reindeers!" Wick is telling you.

Was this a conscious decision in OD&D? I doubt it - it just kinda evolved with everyone going off in different directions. In 3e's case, though... Ryan Dancey was talking about "toolbox design", so this was definitely considered and included for our enjoyment...

 

[Droogie]

If Chewbacca does not make sense, you must acquit!
[produces a monkey]
Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey.

How dare you invoke the "Chewbacca Defense", you scoundrel!

 

[bwgwl]

re: "toolbox" D&D

here here! this is the major reason why i play D&D instead of most other systems. i love world-building. i love world-building more than i like DMing games.

systems that have a setting hard-wired into the rules leave me cold, because i don't want to play in someone else's world, i want to play in my own! i'm not saying the settings i come up with are any better than those created by published game designers, but like Melan says, they're mine, so they are more special to me.

if Mr. Wick hates D&D for its genericness, he'll probably flip his lid over FREd (5th edition HERO system). it's got even less setting-specific stuff in it than D&D. no default races, classes, spells, monsters ... nothing. not even a default genre! HERO is there to let the GM create all that stuff himself. it even says it right on the cover: "The Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit."

 

[Victim]

Or if it's a low-magic campaign. Or if it's a low-tech campaign. Or if we switch to armor-as-DR rather than armor-as-AC. If we're discussing hypothetical rules, there are a lot of elements to tweak.

Further, a lot of the things we consider standard in the current rules are there to balance things as they now stand. Since characters don't naturally advance in AC, there are plenty of magic items that grant AC bonuses.

With a bit of teamwork and preparation, you can get almost the same effects without a single (permanent) magic item. Mass Haste, extended Magic Vestments, etc. With no magic items, that cleric will have a +4 Plate, a +4 shield and maybe a +4 weapon that will last all day from extend spell. Standard AC is still 27, with 31 self buffed and 35 if the wizard hastes him. And now the fighter is screwed because his gear sucks in comparison and the cleric had to use too many spells to keep up his own defenses to buff him too. The only way to prevent this effect is rip apart the spellcasting classes.

A lower tech setting probably won't have anywhere near as much masterwork stuff, so while so knock about 5 off the heroes AC because he's in hide, you knock 2 off the attack of the guard so things aren't much better. Of course, you can benefit from higher dex with Hide, so there's barely any difference.

Armor as DR would probably end up making goons with X-bows less efffective. Because these guys aren't going to be throwing attacks with good damage modifiers - they only do 1d8 with that crossbow - attacks will just bounce off the armor. After a certain point, you might not even bother rolling because their maximum damage is less than the DR with the exception of crits. And if you're giving an AC bonus, then they have a poor confirmation roll. 10th level characters will still be invulnerable to loser guards with crossbows. Problem not solved.

By this point, you've gone from a advocating a change from ablaitive style to defenses (getting worn down) to more absolute defenses (not hit as often, but it hurts more) to completely redesigning spell casting classes and spell lists, changing armor to DR, removing magic items and high middle ages technology, and adding another class ability for balancing.

That's hardly getting the same result "just as easily."

 

[William Ronald]

I have never cared for systems that are so tied to their world setting that they rules are useless without the setting. It is almost as if the designers have decided that anyone wanting to take their work in a different direction than they imagined must be stopped. What hubris!

Gaming is about imagination. I would rather have a platform where I can build what I wish as opposed to be straight-jacketed into someone else's vision. I prefer to do my own thinking.

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Ya guys missed the point that I was making. Even with high hp, you can still threaten PCs in certain situations with the current rules, through a little bending. It's still supported, however.

I am most DEFINETLY NOT saying that high lv PCs should feel threatened by a single peon; that is a gross exaggeration. I *am* saying, however, that the PCs can in fact be threatened under the right circumstances despite high HP whereas they couldn't before in earlier editions, without some heavy rule0ing, or a ton of magical bullmess thrown in. In addition to that there are ways to threaten the PCs in such situations in campaigns of varying magical power.

For example, if a NPC assassin had a knife to one of the PC's throats and the villain was sneering, ready to make them surrender or negociate, while the rest of the party just laughed at him and said "haha, how will your goon kill him before he breaks free and we paste all of you, with him using a d4 dagger" in your campaigns, that is a little odd. If you need things going exactly by the rules to threaten your PCs (meaning to capture the PCs in a castle setting at higher lvs, you would have to have mages, monsters summoned and such instead of 60 crossbowmen, unless all of their xbows and bolts were enchanted and poisoned...), then they will likely not be doing much roleplaying or city/castle dwelling, and that is fine. Or, it is just a high magic campaign rather than a mid/low one, and that is fine. Just remember, NOT all campaigns are high magic, not all campaigns have to have fantastic demons to convince the PCs they need to listen to the opposition for once or stop fighting for a moment to realize they probably should reconsider their options before continuing.

The great thing about D&D is that you can run the pace how you want. I was simply saying that certain realistic situations can retain their realism despite unrealistic levels of hp. With CDGs, there are fewer cases of, "oh, I had to slit his throat 8 times before he died...was quite messy", or "the executioner for some reason couldn't cut off the villains head until he had hacked at the screaming criminal's neck 26 times, and then the evil criminal finally died, his head rolling to the ground, and the onlookers just staring in shocked silence", or "the rebel was finally cowed and gave up after 60 archers and the royal guard cornered him and shot 10 volleys of arrows into him, 156 of which actually hit and didn't glance off, and 63 of which actually pierced through his armor...afterwards he was escorted off to prison, where the arrows and his armor were promptly removed, and it was all actually a misunderstanding and the guy was let off within a week", though the cases might really happen in more fantastic (or silly from my exaggerations ) campaigns. It's up to the DM, and the tools are there.

 

[bondetamp]

I have never cared for systems that are so tied to their world setting that they rules are useless without the setting. It is almost as if the designers have decided that anyone wanting to take their work in a different direction than they imagined must be stopped. What hubris!

Gaming is about imagination. I would rather have a platform where I can build what I wish as opposed to be straight-jacketed into someone else's vision. I prefer to do my own thinking.

I'm not sure I follow you. Do you have any specific system in mind?

 

[GrimJesta]

I have never cared for systems that are so tied to their world setting that they rules are useless without the setting

I can name a few that are tied into their settings, but NONE are useless w/o the setting, even WhiteWolf, where the setting is everything!

Ive used WW's ST system of Vampire for a Max Payne game, and Ive used Middle Earth RolePlaying for basic D&Desque gaming. Heck, even the setting heavy Earthdawn translates well w/o its setting.

Maybe Im missing one or two that are useless w/o the setting, but I honestly cannot think of one.

-=grim=-