The Genius of D&D

mmadsen said:

Wow, I have just the opposite impression. D&D is the game everyone started with and the game almost everyone left -- or rather, if you're playing another game, it's because you finally couldn't take the D&Disms any more (1st- or 2nd-edition presumably).

Third Edition certainly brought a lot of nostalgic 1st- and 2nd-edition players back into the fold though; that's clear.

I'm one of those who more-or-less left D&D before 3E came along (I took part in one 2E campaign, but that was really just to maintain contact with some friends). I left D&D not so much because I had a problem with hit points, AC, or anything like that, but because the 2E rules were just badly written. I mean, really badly written. They were the sort of rules to keep a group arguing for ages on what their intending meaning was, and there were holes large enough to do proverbial things with. It didn't help that the group insisted on using all the Player's Option books which allowed you to create super-minmaxed characters without too much effort.

And 2E didn't even have EGG's polysyllabic flair to keep things interesting. All in all, I'm not surprised that a lot of people drifted away during those days.
 

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WSmith said:


But they are also used to represent health. It just doesn't seem right that Cure Serious WOUNDS restores the skill one has to dodge blows. That is were many people find it difficult to swallow.


That makes a bad spell, not a bad sistem.

What if the cure light wouds spell cures 1 hit point/character level, cure moderate 2, and so forth? That way, wounds are healed proportionately and there´s no (or at least less) paradox.
 

What if the cure light wouds spell cures 1 hit point/character level, cure moderate 2, and so forth? That way, wounds are healed proportionately and there´s no (or at least less) paradox.

I've actually suggested that in the past. You're still left with Barbarians who heal more slowly than Wizards, but it's a big improvement -- in plausability if not in playability.
 

Perhaps HPs don't need justifying...tougher, more experienced people can just take more hits than that Joe Shmoe.

Think of it this way...

Your typical Joe Shmoe gets slugged in the jaw. Your typical Joe Shmoe goes down.

Your typical PROFESSIONAL BOXER , who gets slugged like that 20 or 30 times a day, gets slugged in the jaw. Your typical Professional boxer shrugs it off and wades back in with both fists.

Now lets say that Joe Shmoe is the average Com1. The Professional boxer is Fighter20. You can see the analogy.

To quote Monty Python, "I've had worse!"
 

Anabstercorian said:
The way I deal with the Hit Point Conundrum is simple - Hit Points are a supernatural quality of the game world that represent an unusually powerful life force.

What happens in an anti-magic field?

Hit points do work in a low-magic game. The "Cure Serious Wounds" cast on a guy with 50 out of 80 hit points just means you gave him back his breath, took away the fatigue in his muscles, maybe healed a sprain or two. I like the way hit points work, although I would like to see an active defense roll because that's my personal preference.
 

mmadsen, my experience is exactly the same as yours. Almost all the gamers I've known in the past were former D&D players. True, now that I'm playing 3e, I've run into more that stayed with it even through the "dark years." But I never more than flipped through a 2e book at the store while I was buying Traveller and Werewolf stuff like it was going out of style. And the guys I gamed with all essentially did the same thing, with one system or another.
 

I play D&D because it is fun.

I like to wade into combat, cast those powerful spells, or sneak up behind bad guys and do lots of damage. What’s important to me, and to others I think, is that something happens every round. I take a little damage. I take a lot. Sometimes I miss, but not by much. I know I will hit next round, even if it doesn’t kill the guy. This form of combat is pretty predictable in that I know relatively how long my character can last in a fight.

I have playtested with Ken Hood’s rules too. They are well written and mesh well with 3e. However, what I have found is is that there are (when fighting people of similar level) long periods where nothing happens. Very good defense scores means that rounds go by without anyone hitting anybody. Sure, there is action going on for the PCs (they swing, they dodge, swords miss by a hair’s breath), but there is no visible action for the players. Rounds just go through in a quick succession of dice rolling. When they do hit though (and it’s almost a surprise when it happens), you’re halfway dead in one blow. If you’re high enough level you’re only a third of the way dead. This is very realistic I suppose. Vampire’s system where you get skill penalties when wounded is even more realistic.

It’s not very fun though. That’s reality. I get plenty of reality all day. If I wanted a “realistic” fight I know several good martial arts and boxing dojos. I also live about 10 minutes away from some of the worst neighborhoods in my state. Plenty of reality there at 2 AM in dark alleys.

Not many heroes though. I like being a hero. I like being able to walk up to a Fire Giant and spit on his shoe (I might even burn a Levitate spell just to spit in his eye). It’s Chutzpah. It’s fun.

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As for the HP argument, you guys are all focusing on the wrong thing (IMO). Cure Spells scale perfectly with weapon damage. i.e. neither change at all. If it makes you fell better call Cure Light Wounds Cure Longsword Slash. Cure Moderate Wounds can be Cure Greatsword Slash. Cure Serious Wounds would be Cure Being Mauled By Lions. Whether you’re a 1st level fighter or a 20th level one, one CLW spell puts you back in for one more sword hit. Works for me.

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There are several sound, well documented studies of what people like, from different industries and different disciplines of science.

The publishing industry knows that Fantasy sells way more than Sci-Fi. It’s just an accepted truth. An author I know who writes both likes her Sci-Fi books better, but writes more Fantasy to “put food on the table.” Murder Mysteries set in ancient times or far away places sell better than ones in the present day. Books and movies where the hero is over-the-top cool are more attractive to the mass audience than imperfect, mortal, easily killed ones (otherwise how can you explain what Arnold Schwarzenegger gets paid as opposed to Sean Penn). And before anyone gets on their high horse, ask yourself this: How many Arnie movies can you name? How many have you seen? How many times? What about Sean Penn? Sure, maybe some of you avoid anything with Arnie, Stallone or Snipes in it, but let’s face it. You’re a minority and you know it. This isn’t something to get upset over, for both you and me it’s a personal choice.

As for levels v. incremental improvement, the Gambler’s Addiction is very true and well grounded in most of us. It’s what allowed our ancestors to keep throwing spears all day, without quitting, for that big payoff (dinner). It’s also why household chores are not fun for most folks. They’re regular and incremental.

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In the end though, you have to realize that it’s just a game. I like the way I play it. As long as you are having fun, who cares how you determine wounds and defense in your RPGs? I don’t. You can play it however you want. Just realize that most folks aren’t going to follow you. The farther you get the “D&D-isms” that make D&D a fun, easy break from the daily grind, they harder it will be to get a gaming group together. That’s just the truth. Ask anyone who looks at the posting boards in local gaming shops.

Call them the lowest common denominator; call them the themes that unite us as humans. Call them whatever you want. Just don’t call Fantasy, Power-Levels or a desire to be Heroic stupid and inane. They’re fun. They're both escapist and rewarding. We like ‘em that way when we play games.

Irda Ranger
 

Irda Ranger said:
I have playtested with Ken Hood’s rules too. They are well written and mesh well with 3e. However, what I have found is is that there are (when fighting people of similar level) long periods where nothing happens.

That's why I like active defense rolls. It gives you something to do even when it's not your turn.
 

In Monte Cook's most recent Line of Sight, he presents an article called "D&Disms" that he almost called "The Genius of D&D".

In it, Monte goes against conventional wisdom to claim that some of D&D's great strengths have always been: levels, classes, hit points, and dungeons. Newer games have supposedly transcended these limitations, but they're really what made D&D popular -- according to Monte.

On levels, Monte says:
Without the "carrot on the stick" that's clearly displayed ahead of us (in the form of the level advancement system) we might not keep playing the game. If the characters never got better, or if "where we were going" wasn't clear, we'd get bored.

I won't deny that, but I do have to think there's more than one way to provide the "carrot on the stick". First, power-ups don't have to come in the form of levels. Picking up a Feat (Power Attack) and following a Feat chain (Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave) could easily serve the same purpose. So could Spells with chains of prereqs.

Then there's the fact that many power-ups in D&D aren't associated with levels at all but with magic items acquired as loot. As many people gloat over their hoard as over their level.

And then there are whole other genres of advancement: roleplaying rewards for having saved the princess, political power, etc. Owning a castle and ruling over the land could make quite a carrot.

And because level advancement comes as a "lump sum" instead of gradually, bit by bit, the benefits are almost always significant and impressive. Yet these benefits come often enough to be fitting rewards for consistent play.

Occasional (even random) rewards that are significant appeal to people more than frequent minor rewards. People enjoy gambling or hunting more than farming or collecting wages.

Even though I can see the advantage of meaningful jumps over incremental improvements, I think D&D's levels are a bit too granular; the jumps are too big. A Feat or Spell certainly seems significant and impressive enough.

The modern 3E notion of classes differs quite a bit from previous editions'. In some ways they've remained constant though:

Classes facilitate the game as a group activity.

True. If everyone has a clearly defined role, each member of the group should get a chance to shine.

Classes are simple.

Also true. Many alternatives to D&D didn't value simplicity, and that's a shame. In particular, first-edition D&D's rigid classes made character creation a breeze. You could get right to the game.

Classes channel character creation creativity. They provide a templated starting point for you when you make a character. They're not a straightjacket -- they are a median point from which a creative player can deviate. If you want a character who grew up on the streets but secretly wants to learn the arts of magic, you can create a rogue character and eventually multiclass into a wizard. With multiclassing, and skill and feat selection, you can create whatever character you want -- classes don't stop you at all.

Monte explicitly states that "The Genius of D&D" isn't his doing, that it "has to do with the early days of the game's development, and nothing to do with 3rd Edition." Oddly then, his defense of classes rests on 3rd Edition's flexible classes and multiclassing.

D&D's reputation goes back to its 1st edition, and 1E clearly did have classes as straightjackets. Sure, you could make up a different backstory, but the difference between two 5th-level Fighters was negligible, and any two 5th-level Thieves had the same skills with the same emphases.

Even in 3E, many, many classes are surprisingly inflexible. Couldn't every class have used Bonus Feats instead of set Special Ability progressions?

One serious issue with classes (and levels), already mentioned, is the inflexibility. Another, especially now that we have easy access to multiclassing, is that the classes don't often encapsulate just related abilities. That warrior training grants extra Hit Points and an improved BAB surprises no one -- but any training grants extra Hit Points and improved BAB in D&D. High-level scribes and wizards fight dramatically better than their low-level counterparts, even if they aren't supposed to be great adventurers but just great scholars.

At any rate, the problem isn't classes so much as how classes have been implemented so far.

Monte seems to prop up a Straw Man in his defense of Hit Points:
Sure, a system that describes being burned, falling from a high place, and being stabbed with a sword all using the exact same mechanic isn't very realistic. However, it's exactly that abstraction that makes the game playable and easy to learn.

The number one complaint about Hit Points from the beginning of time has never been their lack of complexity -- although that has come up. The chief complaint with Hit Points has always been that they increase way too fast to the point where they don't match reality -- or even the fantastic "reality" of epic heroes.

We all know the standard arguments:

"How can my Fighter take a dozen sword blows?"
"Oh, well, he's not actually hit just because he's, er, 'hit'"
"Huh?"
"Well, those hit points represent the fatigue of dodging blows and the minor scratches he takes as he rolls with attacks that would've skewered a 4-hit-point Commoner."
"Then why does he have to heal these hit points over days and weeks? And why doesn't a healing potion heal those little scratches? Or a healing spell?"
"Why don't you just play GURPS and leave us alone!"


What is true is that Hit Points are an easy-to-use mechanic, and many alternative games made it their priority to be as complex as possible -- all in the mistaken belief that complexity equals realism equals fun.

Monte complains about non-hit-point damage systems:
Virtually every other damage system is either too deadly over the long term, or not deadly enough.

From my experience, other game systems try to make combat super-deadly, in an effort to distinguish themselves from D&D.

What I find fascinating is Monte's support of Hit Points for scaling well, when, of course, they don't. Mundane attacks (1d8 swords and spears) just stop mattering at higher levels. We all know the pain of cornering a PC at sword point or surrounding him with crossbowmen only to either (a) institute rules that sidestep Hit Points to keep these attacks lethal, or (b) twist the rules/expectations of the game to make those crossbowmen Rogues with extra Sneak Attack damage, or (c) plead with the players to go along and pretend their characters are in fact threatened.

D&D has a tendency to scale everything together. Hit Points, Armor Class, Attack Bonus, and Damage all increase in almost lock-step, and low damage for a high-level monster is almost always very, very high damage for anyone except high-level heroes.

On Dungeons, Monte says:
I've already gone on at length on this topic in the sidebar on page 106 of the DMG. Let me just add to that by saying that not only are dungeons excellent learning tools for new DMs and players, but they're just lots of fun. Dungeon-style adventuring is escapist, simple and often lighthearted.

I think we can all agree that dungeon-style adventuring is simple, lighthearted fun.

If I look back on my own early D&D days though, I can see that inexperienced DMs need help making the transition from mindless dungeons (a room full of Orcs, followed by a room full of Gnolls, followed by a room full of Bugbears) to sensible adventures.

Also, it's a shame that the rules clearly expect dungeon adventuring. Wizards are balanced for dungeon adventures. Their spell lists are almost all combat spells, and the limitations of their magic (N spells per day) really aren't very limiting at all -- except in a dungeon.

In his conclusion, Monte states:
Some people believe that D&D is the most successful roleplaying game* simply because it was first. I don't know if that comes from a lack of insight or sour grapes. Or both.

* It's the most successful RPG by far --- so much more so, in fact, that other roleplaying games don't really even register on the same scale.

I think there's quite a bit to the idea that D&D arrived "firstest with the mostest" and has owned the niche it created ever since. For something like a game, particularly a complex game, finding other dedicated players who know the rules and want to play is a huge barrier to getting a game going. It's like plugging into a telephone or computer network; the biggest network will get bigger and bigger as more people join it rather than a "better" alternative with fewer members to connect to.

Monte also seems to overlook another big part of D&D's appeal: the sheer quantity of monsters, magic items, and spells it presents. D&D as a kid meant "oohing" and "aaahing" over the monsters and magic items. As an amalgam of anything and everything from all sorts of fantasy influences, D&D may not come with a built-in style (Tolkien or Robert E. Howard or Morte D'Arthur), but it gives you a huge menu of choices for building your own game. I think most of us threw in everything, and that was great fun at the time (and it still can be), but even if you want a more coherent campaign, it's much easier to strip away elements than to create them and add them in.

Many "better" systems restrict their focus or provide flavorless mechanics, expecting the gamemaster to inject his personal taste.

Another element of D&D's "genius" may be its genre: fantasy. D&D hit in the late 70's, the same era when Star Wars arrived, and many feel that our post-Vietnam culture was yearning for feel-good fantasy.

Or maybe D&D's "genius" wasn't any one of these elements. Maybe it simply put it all together better than any other game. Maybe it's the synergy between all this elements that proved to be D&D's "genius".
 

Jordan said:

Unless one of them rolls a critical hit. Then the epic hero who's slain dragons, demon lords, hideous beasts, etc., just got killed by a guy with a part-time job as a castle guard. That may be something that could "realistically" happen, but it's definitely not any fun for the player. Unless the system you're talking about doesn't have critical hits, then literally anyone under the sun has a chance to kill any character, no matter how powerful, just by virtue of a single lucky roll or two. How much fun is it for a character who's faced down dragons, giants, and devils (oh my!) to have to cower in fear whenever anyone points a crossbow at him?

Then you have a boring DM. If you ever wrote a book, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the heroes died from a lucky shot from a guard or something, ending the story abruptly in the middle f the plot. At least that is what it seems like. Either that or your character would be immune to almost all damage. Wooot, exciting!
No good Dm would let that happen, even if its "fair game", because it's no fun for noone (except the evil DM with an aggenda towards that particular player)


Jordan said:


And this is the case in D&D as well. Hit points are an abstract used to represent skill. A well placed blow from a greatsword will kill a skilled, healthy fighter just as easily as it will a sickly grandmother. But the fighter is a lot more skilled at avoiding that well placed blow than the grandmother is. Sure, the guy swinging the greatsword might make contact - but the fighter is going to be dodging, rolling away, blocking with his weapon at the last second, doing all sorts of things the grandmother isn't capable of. That's what hit points represent, not the fighter just standing there while his opponent chops away again and again.

Then what does AC represent??????

Okay, so both AC and Hit Points mean the same thing??? Hit points should be called Evasion Points or Dogde Points if what you are saying is correct. And if HP represents all this, why don't we just do away with AC and give out insane amounts of HP, dince losing hit points doesn't necessarily mean taking any damage!

Blargh
 

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