The "good story/good game" fallacy

[Kahuna Burger]

So in the "forced to make good pcs" thread, I ran across a somewhat common idea that always makes me tear my hair out, and I though I'd finally rant about it.

"There's lots of good stories where X [and therefore it would make a good rpg occurance]". (this idea can also be stated in the form of "people like to read ABC's story hour where X happens [so its a good way to run an rpg]". This is one of those just because all X = Y doesn't mean all Y = X situations. Yes, a good roleplaying game usually if not always makes a good story. But there's a huge amount of good stories that would make lousy roleplaying. Ok, unless you are playing a single player game on some of them.

The unbalanced party. Sure there's lots of good stories about groups at different power levels. So what? Those stories are often really only about one or two members of those groups, and there is a lot of character delevopment given to the lower powered members which can't be emulated in an RPG. Often the highest level characters are not point of veiw - their powers are more of a plot device.

The moral evolution. Stories about a rat bastard who slowly becomes a better person are, well about that rat bastard. The other characters are there to act in specific ways that effect his moral development. An RPG is a team event, and expecting everyone else to play support characters for your emotional vingette is bad behavior. Likewise, deciding as the DM that you are going to force a change in a PC like those you like in your favorite books is equally bad. And deciding the PCs are all going to be the support characters for your npc's emotional journey? oh dear. This counts for almost all special destinies or journeys of discovery which you allow to effect the main course of the plot instead of being played out in the background.

Rough and gritty/high body count. Yeah, great stories have been written where death comes early and often even for main characters. Guess what, all of the characters belong to the same "player". The death, pain, loss, torture, rape, insanity, etc are all the idea and execution of the owner of the character they happen to. Though readers may get more or less attached to a character and thus more or less effected by such events, none of them invented the damn character nor have they been quietly working on their own inner story which just got ed over by your "good storytelling".

There are other examples of good stories that most rpgers already realize won't make a good game. Anything involving keeping something about the main character from the readers and slowly letting them understand what the story is really about won't work where the "readers" and characters are the same. Mysteries can be used, but aren't going to work the same way as they do in the stories. Any of the great paranormal stories where character abilities are unpredictable and able to be 'pushed' in times of great need are mechanically akward. etc.

Anyway, just thought I'd finally get that rant out of the way without dumping it on any one unsuspecting poster.

Kahuna burger

 

[Mouseferatu]

I am a big believer in story-based campaigns, and also in non-evil parties (for the most part). That said...

I agree with you 100%. Many is the time I have sat through a campaign that was really not very much fun to play, because the DM was obviously trying to run a particular type of story--a type that works fine in novels or movies but does not work at all in game. (I was guilty of this myself, back when I first started gaming in the early and mid-80s.)

[blatant self-promotion]
In fact, in the Player's Guide for Vampire: The Masquerade that White Wolf just released, there's a section of essays from various WW writers. Mine, called "But It Worked So Well On Television..." is on this self-same topic.
[/blatant self-promotion]

D&D is capable of emulating a lot of aspects of fantasy stories from other media, but not all of them. Some things simply will not translate, no matter how hard you try.

 

[jmucchiello]

I agree with most of this with one caveat:

The unbalanced party. Sure there's lots of good stories about groups at different power levels. So what? Those stories are often really only about one or two members of those groups, and there is a lot of character delevopment given to the lower powered members which can't be emulated in an RPG. Often the highest level characters are not point of veiw - their powers are more of a plot device.

Superhero games are far more forgiving of PCs with varying power levels. I think part of the reason is that they take place in a semi-modern setting and so the story can be enriched by external forces never seen in a Fantasy game. How many 8th level fighters have an Aunt May? Or routinely vary between powered and unpowered (a Shazam style character)?

So I was with you up until you said "emulated in an RPG". Stick the word "fantasy" between "a[n]" and "RPG" and we agree.

 

[Elf Witch]

The comment about the Rat bastard caught my attention because we have something like this happening in the game I play in. The leader of the party was lawful evil now because of things in game he is becoming more good. It is fantastic roleplaying. And no one feels like they are playing second fiddle to him. It just a natural progression of the character.

For things like this to work everyone needs to have something they are doing with their character so that they don't feel as if they are just along for the ride.

I tend to really getting into the role playing and lately I have felt that maybe I take to much of the story for myself I know that I am the one who tends to drive it. I don't do this to always be the focus of attention but I do talk to the DM and I tend to be good at picking up his clues and hints also since I do give my character a background and goals I give the DM something to feed off of. Most of the rest just wait to see what he is going to have them do what hook he is baiting.

So to avoid this for a while and give some others a chance to drive I retired my character and made a simple tank with very little background and whose only motivation is to fight and die with honor. It won't be as much fun for me but I hope it will make the others feel less like support characters and maybe encourage them to get more involved.

 

[Teflon Billy]

So to avoid this for a while and give some others a chance to drive I retired my character and made a simple tank with very little background and whose only motivation is to fight and die with honor. It won't be as much fun for me but I hope it will make the others feel less like support characters and maybe encourage them to get more involved.

Feh! Martyr

You, by abandoning your role as the "Fulcrum upon which setting specific events turn", have left your game group open to a lot of wordless staring at each other and sitting in Taverns waiting for an old man to offer to sell a map

Worse than that, you ahve self-admittedly made the game less fun for yourself in the process.

 

[fusangite]

Kahuna Burger, I must say that, for once, I am in complete accord with you. To expand on what you've said, I'll add that I believe a good story has an inevitable narrative -- in order for themes to develop, etc. certain things must happen and must happen in a particular order. To impose such a linear structure on D&D does not make a good game.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I agree with most of this with one caveat:

Superhero games are far more forgiving of PCs with varying power levels. I think part of the reason is that they take place in a semi-modern setting and so the story can be enriched by external forces never seen in a Fantasy game. How many 8th level fighters have an Aunt May? Or routinely vary between powered and unpowered (a Shazam style character)?

So I was with you up until you said "emulated in an RPG". Stick the word "fantasy" between "a[n]" and "RPG" and we agree.

*nod* superhero campaigns usually use a more flexible power system to accomadate this sort of imbalance, and I agree it works better in some genres/systems than others. It could theoretically work in a fantasy system as well, if you got everyone on board early on with the different kinds of "power" needed in a campaign and how they could be balanced.

But yeah, most of my comments were D&D centric as they reflect things that have come up on this board.

kahuna burger

 

[Olive]

I couldn't agree more with KB's rant.

 

[Elf Witch]

Feh! Martyr

You, by abandoning your role as the "Fulcrum upon which setting specific events turn", have left your game group open to a lot of wordless staring at each other and sitting in Taverns waiting for an old man to offer to sell a map

Worse than that, you ahve self-admittedly made the game less fun for yourself in the process.

Yeah, well when the DM tells you he is getting grief from some of the players who feel as if they are nothing more than my character's chumps it is time to do something. The problem is I tend to give the DM a lot of material to work with I interact with NPCs I try and convince the party what quest to go on. And the DM tends to make the story about my character because I am giving him so much and am so involved.

My current character has driven the game for a long time the DM used her to get the others to follow his quest so she has become central to the plotline.

Like I said in my first post I hope this will ease some of the resentment of the other players and get them more involved and make them aware of often they are ao passive with waiting to be spoon feed the next quest.

I will admit freely that part of me feels like a martyr but I also hope that it will mkae things better in the long run.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...I will admit freely that part of me feels like a martyr but I also hope that it will mkae things better in the long run.

Yeah, I was just ribbing you

I, as a DM, often fall into a similar trap. When certain PC's give me something to work with, they tend to get more of my attention (which gives them more to work with) and so on and so on and so on...

But, seriosuly, what other way is there to go?

I have players--good players (Show up on time, have their own dice, clean up on their way out)--who, when asked to give me a background for their character show up with "Just a Normal Fighter" or "A wizard who wants more power" or some such crap.

In a case like that, the guy who shows up with something as simple as "Comes from a disgraced noble family" or "Hates the thieves guild becasue they killed his little brother" tends to get most of my attention.

What are you supposed to do with a player who shows up with a background of "Just, you know, a regular guy", they can be great in play (solving problems, tactically fighting etc) but as far as having the setting work with them, they are just null-quantitites.