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The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9242149" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>That is wonderful for you, and I'm sure your players appreciate it. However, claims like "DnD levels are like [Blank]" should not rely on your personal homebrew that no other table uses. If your perception of the game is filtered through homebrew, it is skewed. </p><p></p><p>Yes, the game can be homebrewed, so you are "technically" correct, but that is like explaining that Skyrim allows you to play as the Onion Knight because modders created a mod. It isn't accurate to most people's experience with the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts, a Legendary item. Or it is an artifact. And sure, some artifacts can cause widespread destruction... but most of them can't. The most powerful cataclysmic items in the game I am currently aware of are the Devastation Orbs from Princes of the Apocalypse. And they are "damage a town" level, not planetary in scale. </p><p></p><p>Is there a single Artifact in DnD that has stats for players to access, that is regional or planetary in scale? Or is this simply a "well, theoritically, a villain might use a magical item that would give them the ability to use their plot and..." Because I don't think I've ever seen a player with an item that can affect a continent on their character sheet.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>She can't rip out of ropes. She has never done so once. This is what I keep trying to explain. You are giving her a higher level of strength that she has, because she is good at fighting unarmed, jumping, and climbing. However, in things like bursting rope or muscling out of a gym bros grapple, she CANNOT do so. So your strength score for her makes no sense. </p><p></p><p>Unless you think these cops have a Strength of 26 or higher? </p><p>[ATTACH=full]343428[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Or these ropes are somehow lined with titanium? </p><p>[MEDIA=youtube]pAW5lv-NmYY[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just double checking, you remember that Weightlifting as a skill doesn't exist yet, correct? And Proficiency goes to +6, not +7? And that there is no reason to assume that Catwoman the Cat Burglar thief would be particular trained in weightlifting? </p><p></p><p>The reason I'm not accounting for a +6 on top of her strength is that it is a skill it doesn't make sense for her to have. UNLESS that skill made her better at jumping, which it wouldn't. Again, MY ENTIRE POINT revolves around the difference between Strength being used to restrain people and shatter steel, and strength being needed for climbing ropes and jumping up buildings. A character like Catwoman could easily leap onto the top of a building, as Ninja characters and Phantom Thief characters do so all the time, but they are not "strong" in the sense of breaking steel or arm wrestling. The archetype allows for one thing DnD defines and strength, but not the other. But DnD has combined the two things, in a way that makes it hard to follow the archetype.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And why can't anyone else rip through steel with an 18 strength? You've taken the exact opposite of my point. We know that Vampire's are famously inhumanly strong... and that is an 18 strength. Instead of declaring that an 18 strength means that DnD vampires are weak, why do we not declare than an 18 strength means that a character is inhumanly strong? </p><p></p><p>I think one of the great pities of DnD ability scores is we see 20 as "the best a human can do" and forget that a half-vampire Dhampir, or a Demon-Possessed Tiefling, or a Giant-Blooded Goliath ALSO has a 20 strength, and that 20 strength is identical between them. So if we wouldn't blink twice at a Vampire ripping through a steel door, picking a man up by the neck, and throwing him across a room.... why is a human fighter who is stronger than that vampire going to struggle to do the same?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Resistant isn't immune. You can still kill a creature made of stone with a whip. </p><p></p><p>Yes, you could theoretically make a stone creature immune to non-magical weapons, so you couldn't harm it with a sledgehammer either. You could also theoretically do the same thing to a humanoid made of flesh and blood. </p><p></p><p>You seem to do a lot of "but in theory you could alter the rules" without much discussing of the facts of the rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, no where. If the DM uses the rules from the item, it has no special immunities to damage type. Heck, shattering manancles with a sword that deals slashing damage is a common trope, so the item doesn't even have any special resistances or immunities to the damage type. </p><p></p><p>What this really comes down to, is the tone of the story. No man could break stone with his fist... until you are in a story where breaking stone with your fist is something you can do if you are strong enough. Even the DMG's line about not being able to cut through a stone wall with a sword is something that is genre specific. I've seen swordsmen with swords cutting boulders, walls, stone pillars, it happens quite often.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't care about your design concept. It sounds like it could be fun in the right circumstance, but it has nothing to do with DnD as it stands. </p><p></p><p>And sure, Stopping Time and not being able to affect anything is sort of similar to moving really fast and incapacitating a bunch of people. Just like spending 8 hours to sort of change the weather is sort of like altering the weather of the entire planet in a few minutes. Or dominating the mind of a single creature is sort of like dominating the minds of an entire cities worth of people all at once. </p><p></p><p>But scale and effect are at play here. Sure, both a DnD character and a Super Hero might "manipulate fire" but the effects, control, and variety of abilities are VASTLY different. And even a level 20 Pyro-Mage is only going to be a B-List Fire Superhero at best, maybe less. DnD just doesn't have the level of effects that we see in other fantasy media.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9242149, member: 6801228"] That is wonderful for you, and I'm sure your players appreciate it. However, claims like "DnD levels are like [Blank]" should not rely on your personal homebrew that no other table uses. If your perception of the game is filtered through homebrew, it is skewed. Yes, the game can be homebrewed, so you are "technically" correct, but that is like explaining that Skyrim allows you to play as the Onion Knight because modders created a mod. It isn't accurate to most people's experience with the game. Or it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts, a Legendary item. Or it is an artifact. And sure, some artifacts can cause widespread destruction... but most of them can't. The most powerful cataclysmic items in the game I am currently aware of are the Devastation Orbs from Princes of the Apocalypse. And they are "damage a town" level, not planetary in scale. Is there a single Artifact in DnD that has stats for players to access, that is regional or planetary in scale? Or is this simply a "well, theoritically, a villain might use a magical item that would give them the ability to use their plot and..." Because I don't think I've ever seen a player with an item that can affect a continent on their character sheet. She can't rip out of ropes. She has never done so once. This is what I keep trying to explain. You are giving her a higher level of strength that she has, because she is good at fighting unarmed, jumping, and climbing. However, in things like bursting rope or muscling out of a gym bros grapple, she CANNOT do so. So your strength score for her makes no sense. Unless you think these cops have a Strength of 26 or higher? [ATTACH type="full"]343428[/ATTACH] Or these ropes are somehow lined with titanium? [MEDIA=youtube]pAW5lv-NmYY[/MEDIA] Just double checking, you remember that Weightlifting as a skill doesn't exist yet, correct? And Proficiency goes to +6, not +7? And that there is no reason to assume that Catwoman the Cat Burglar thief would be particular trained in weightlifting? The reason I'm not accounting for a +6 on top of her strength is that it is a skill it doesn't make sense for her to have. UNLESS that skill made her better at jumping, which it wouldn't. Again, MY ENTIRE POINT revolves around the difference between Strength being used to restrain people and shatter steel, and strength being needed for climbing ropes and jumping up buildings. A character like Catwoman could easily leap onto the top of a building, as Ninja characters and Phantom Thief characters do so all the time, but they are not "strong" in the sense of breaking steel or arm wrestling. The archetype allows for one thing DnD defines and strength, but not the other. But DnD has combined the two things, in a way that makes it hard to follow the archetype. And why can't anyone else rip through steel with an 18 strength? You've taken the exact opposite of my point. We know that Vampire's are famously inhumanly strong... and that is an 18 strength. Instead of declaring that an 18 strength means that DnD vampires are weak, why do we not declare than an 18 strength means that a character is inhumanly strong? I think one of the great pities of DnD ability scores is we see 20 as "the best a human can do" and forget that a half-vampire Dhampir, or a Demon-Possessed Tiefling, or a Giant-Blooded Goliath ALSO has a 20 strength, and that 20 strength is identical between them. So if we wouldn't blink twice at a Vampire ripping through a steel door, picking a man up by the neck, and throwing him across a room.... why is a human fighter who is stronger than that vampire going to struggle to do the same? Resistant isn't immune. You can still kill a creature made of stone with a whip. Yes, you could theoretically make a stone creature immune to non-magical weapons, so you couldn't harm it with a sledgehammer either. You could also theoretically do the same thing to a humanoid made of flesh and blood. You seem to do a lot of "but in theory you could alter the rules" without much discussing of the facts of the rules. So, no where. If the DM uses the rules from the item, it has no special immunities to damage type. Heck, shattering manancles with a sword that deals slashing damage is a common trope, so the item doesn't even have any special resistances or immunities to the damage type. What this really comes down to, is the tone of the story. No man could break stone with his fist... until you are in a story where breaking stone with your fist is something you can do if you are strong enough. Even the DMG's line about not being able to cut through a stone wall with a sword is something that is genre specific. I've seen swordsmen with swords cutting boulders, walls, stone pillars, it happens quite often. I don't care about your design concept. It sounds like it could be fun in the right circumstance, but it has nothing to do with DnD as it stands. And sure, Stopping Time and not being able to affect anything is sort of similar to moving really fast and incapacitating a bunch of people. Just like spending 8 hours to sort of change the weather is sort of like altering the weather of the entire planet in a few minutes. Or dominating the mind of a single creature is sort of like dominating the minds of an entire cities worth of people all at once. But scale and effect are at play here. Sure, both a DnD character and a Super Hero might "manipulate fire" but the effects, control, and variety of abilities are VASTLY different. And even a level 20 Pyro-Mage is only going to be a B-List Fire Superhero at best, maybe less. DnD just doesn't have the level of effects that we see in other fantasy media. [/QUOTE]
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