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The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9242398" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>You are making an assumption here. You are assuming "if you are going to bother having them, you should make them distinctive". However, once more, to me that is not necessarily true. Like you said, B/P/S isn't enough of a difference, so it was simply 1d8 (1d10) that made the difference, meaning I could trivially convince my DM that a spear using those stats was perfectly fine to use. </p><p></p><p>I'm not advocating for the removal of all weapon flavor, but the ability to easily say "Hey, I want this character to use a Bar Mace, which is way deadlier than a normal mace, because I have this aesthetic in mind. Can I just use the Warhammer stats?" is wonderful to me. I don't mind having three basically the same weapons, because the look of the character matters to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But those weapons don't exist for martial weapon wielder's either, because of Quarterstaffs. Greatclub is 2-handed, 1d8, Mace is 1handed, 1d6, Quarterstaff is 1d6 (1d8). It is literally both weapons in one. Why use the inferior weapons? And this is my point, the issue people bring up is that everyone uses the same weapons, and that is going to continue, and maybe even get worse with the way weapon masteries are currently implemented.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The UA playtest one that was never printed? Sure, but I didn't get a level 1 feat and my character is potentially moving away from their spear as they get their class abilities. And I'd currently still not have the feat, considering we haven't hit level 4 yet (PbP game, so it is long). Instead the DM just said "A one-handed, 1d8 versatile weapon? Sure that is perfectly reasonable for you to use" Because it was. Mechanically, I've gained nothing. It is pure aesthetic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All three have the same weapon mastery. The Longsword is the only one that has anything else, since it has the versatile property. Those corner cases give it a versatility the other two options lack. Making it the superior choice because it gives options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, no. Carrying multiple weapons only makes a difference if you use them. And people aren't inclined to swap to a different weapon on every single attack. Many people, myself included, find that deeply troubling. </p><p></p><p>Additionally, with the current design of the Weapon Masteries, you only get two masteries for most classes. A melee weapon and a ranged weapon. You won't get any benefit from swapping to a different melee weapon, unless you are taking a long rest, or you forgo having a ranged mastery. </p><p></p><p>However, if you could gain a mastery, then apply it to any applicable weapon you are holding, now if you need to swap weapons, you still have your kit and your skills. You may see people more willing to switch weapons, when their skills translate between the weapons, and you can have a person using a single weapon, like 90% of fantasy warriors do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If a weapon design is only good because one class can use them.... that's a problem. </p><p></p><p>And sure, Rapiers aren't Light weapons, but then if you want to dual-wield.... rapiers were never going to be an option anyways. Not since they gutted the Dual-wielding feat. And, notably, Weapon Mastery has not a single thing to do with that "meaningful difference" between a dual-wielding build and a Rapier and shield build. So if that is the sort of differentiation you want to see, Weapon Mastery's design did not achieve that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9242398, member: 6801228"] You are making an assumption here. You are assuming "if you are going to bother having them, you should make them distinctive". However, once more, to me that is not necessarily true. Like you said, B/P/S isn't enough of a difference, so it was simply 1d8 (1d10) that made the difference, meaning I could trivially convince my DM that a spear using those stats was perfectly fine to use. I'm not advocating for the removal of all weapon flavor, but the ability to easily say "Hey, I want this character to use a Bar Mace, which is way deadlier than a normal mace, because I have this aesthetic in mind. Can I just use the Warhammer stats?" is wonderful to me. I don't mind having three basically the same weapons, because the look of the character matters to me. But those weapons don't exist for martial weapon wielder's either, because of Quarterstaffs. Greatclub is 2-handed, 1d8, Mace is 1handed, 1d6, Quarterstaff is 1d6 (1d8). It is literally both weapons in one. Why use the inferior weapons? And this is my point, the issue people bring up is that everyone uses the same weapons, and that is going to continue, and maybe even get worse with the way weapon masteries are currently implemented. The UA playtest one that was never printed? Sure, but I didn't get a level 1 feat and my character is potentially moving away from their spear as they get their class abilities. And I'd currently still not have the feat, considering we haven't hit level 4 yet (PbP game, so it is long). Instead the DM just said "A one-handed, 1d8 versatile weapon? Sure that is perfectly reasonable for you to use" Because it was. Mechanically, I've gained nothing. It is pure aesthetic. All three have the same weapon mastery. The Longsword is the only one that has anything else, since it has the versatile property. Those corner cases give it a versatility the other two options lack. Making it the superior choice because it gives options. Actually, no. Carrying multiple weapons only makes a difference if you use them. And people aren't inclined to swap to a different weapon on every single attack. Many people, myself included, find that deeply troubling. Additionally, with the current design of the Weapon Masteries, you only get two masteries for most classes. A melee weapon and a ranged weapon. You won't get any benefit from swapping to a different melee weapon, unless you are taking a long rest, or you forgo having a ranged mastery. However, if you could gain a mastery, then apply it to any applicable weapon you are holding, now if you need to swap weapons, you still have your kit and your skills. You may see people more willing to switch weapons, when their skills translate between the weapons, and you can have a person using a single weapon, like 90% of fantasy warriors do. If a weapon design is only good because one class can use them.... that's a problem. And sure, Rapiers aren't Light weapons, but then if you want to dual-wield.... rapiers were never going to be an option anyways. Not since they gutted the Dual-wielding feat. And, notably, Weapon Mastery has not a single thing to do with that "meaningful difference" between a dual-wielding build and a Rapier and shield build. So if that is the sort of differentiation you want to see, Weapon Mastery's design did not achieve that. [/QUOTE]
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The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules
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