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The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules
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<blockquote data-quote="Vikingkingq" data-source="post: 9243531" data-attributes="member: 66208"><p>I get that, I'm trying to express my design preference here.</p><p></p><p>But your example of the bar mace confuses me - why not just use a warhammer and call it a bar mace, since it's just a flavour thing and not a mechanical thing in both instances, since there isn't an item called a "bar mace" in the game?</p><p></p><p>In other words, what does diminishing the distinctiveness of weapons actually get you that you couldn't have had earlier?</p><p></p><p>Sorry, which do you mean by "those weapons don't exist"? - because I would disagree as to the warhammer, flail, etc. </p><p></p><p>But if we're talking about the greatclub, mace, and quarterstaff, A. I don't think those are particularly relevant to martial weapon proficient characters, since they're all simple and you can get better martial weapons, and B. for non-martial proficient characters Weapon Mastery has indeed improved diversity in that the Greatclub gives you Push, the Mace gives you Sap, and the Quarterstaff gives you Topple. Now they're not "both weapons in one," and there's distinct reasons to use each one. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Ah, ok, that is what I did. And it did gain me something mechanically. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the versatility has to be relevant to make it a superior choice. </p><p></p><p>With all the best will in the world, those people are choosing to play suboptimally and don't really have grounds to complain any more than a Wizard who chooses to cast Fireball on a single target.</p><p></p><p>You're given two masteries not just so that you can do something at range, but also so that you can gain a benefit from swapping between melee weapons like the system intends. </p><p></p><p>If you can apply a Mastery to any weapon you're holding, then people have no incentive to use different weapons; they just stick with the weapon they've got and never look at another weapon, because they gain no benefit from swapping weapons. That's exactly what the devs are trying to avoid by attaching the Mastery to the weapon; it encourages people to experiment, try out new combinations, explore archetypes other than Guy With Magic Sword. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Daggers are still good for all classes because they also have Thrown. They just happen to be even better for Monks, and that's not a problem, that's a bonus. </p><p></p><p>Weapon Mastery absolutely has something to do with the meaningful difference between the Shortsword and the Rapier, because Shortsword has an in-built incentive to dual-wield with Scimitars, Daggers, etc. </p><p></p><p>Now, personally, I'm a little annoyed that you can't play a dual-wielding Rapier without major feat taxes for little mechanical benefit, given how prevalent the Rapier and Dagger/Main-Gauche was in historical combat (much more common than the Rapier/Buckler). However, Weapon Mastery has made it somewhat distinct in that, since the Rapier is pretty much only used with either Shield for defense or an open hand for spells, it plays differently from other Vex weapons.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Vikingkingq, post: 9243531, member: 66208"] I get that, I'm trying to express my design preference here. But your example of the bar mace confuses me - why not just use a warhammer and call it a bar mace, since it's just a flavour thing and not a mechanical thing in both instances, since there isn't an item called a "bar mace" in the game? In other words, what does diminishing the distinctiveness of weapons actually get you that you couldn't have had earlier? Sorry, which do you mean by "those weapons don't exist"? - because I would disagree as to the warhammer, flail, etc. But if we're talking about the greatclub, mace, and quarterstaff, A. I don't think those are particularly relevant to martial weapon proficient characters, since they're all simple and you can get better martial weapons, and B. for non-martial proficient characters Weapon Mastery has indeed improved diversity in that the Greatclub gives you Push, the Mace gives you Sap, and the Quarterstaff gives you Topple. Now they're not "both weapons in one," and there's distinct reasons to use each one. Ah, ok, that is what I did. And it did gain me something mechanically. I think the versatility has to be relevant to make it a superior choice. With all the best will in the world, those people are choosing to play suboptimally and don't really have grounds to complain any more than a Wizard who chooses to cast Fireball on a single target. You're given two masteries not just so that you can do something at range, but also so that you can gain a benefit from swapping between melee weapons like the system intends. If you can apply a Mastery to any weapon you're holding, then people have no incentive to use different weapons; they just stick with the weapon they've got and never look at another weapon, because they gain no benefit from swapping weapons. That's exactly what the devs are trying to avoid by attaching the Mastery to the weapon; it encourages people to experiment, try out new combinations, explore archetypes other than Guy With Magic Sword. Daggers are still good for all classes because they also have Thrown. They just happen to be even better for Monks, and that's not a problem, that's a bonus. Weapon Mastery absolutely has something to do with the meaningful difference between the Shortsword and the Rapier, because Shortsword has an in-built incentive to dual-wield with Scimitars, Daggers, etc. Now, personally, I'm a little annoyed that you can't play a dual-wielding Rapier without major feat taxes for little mechanical benefit, given how prevalent the Rapier and Dagger/Main-Gauche was in historical combat (much more common than the Rapier/Buckler). However, Weapon Mastery has made it somewhat distinct in that, since the Rapier is pretty much only used with either Shield for defense or an open hand for spells, it plays differently from other Vex weapons. [/QUOTE]
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The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules
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