The Grim-n-Gritty Rules

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I've considered using the Grim-n-Gritty (GnG) rules in my dark, low-magic campaign. The low-magic part stems from the fact that I use Call of Cthulhu rules for magic, including insanity points.

After downloading and reading through GnG, the first thing that struck me was the importance of armour. With a full-plate, you gain damage reduction 8! This makes every weapon with a damage die under d10 useless against against the character with full-plate, including longbows which, AFAIK, historically made full-plate useless. Having a high strength score becomes even more important than in the PHB rules. I am aware of the Brute Force feat, but I do not believe that it solves the problem. However, I could be wrong, as I have not play-tested the GnG rules.

Magic is not a problem, as I mentioned above, I use CoC rules for magic. But I would like to create a system for character generation much like CoC, only with additional options from the GnG rules. Any suggestions as to how this could be done?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

If the G&G rules invalidate bows with heavy armor then they are indeed out of wack.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Not necessarily. Don't they include rules for projectile weapons that penetrate armor? I remember something like that... I haven't looked at the file in a while.

 

[mmadsen]

I've considered using the Grim-n-Gritty (GnG) rules in my dark, low-magic campaign.

Oddly, the Grim-n-Gritty rules aren't all that grim. Low-level characters especially get more hit points, and with armor as DR they last much longer. Things only become grim because the cannon-fodder enemies also have more hit points and armor as DR; they don't go down with one stroke.

The low-magic part stems from the fact that I use Call of Cthulhu rules for magic, including insanity points.

I've been meaning to try this. Tell us how it goes!

After downloading and reading through GnG, the first thing that struck me was the importance of armour.

As in the real world...

With a full-plate, you gain damage reduction 8! This makes every weapon with a damage die under d10 useless against against the character with full-plate...

I recommend having attacks cause a point of subdual damage even if they don't penetrate armor (or half damage, as subdual damage, for maces, etc.).

In real life, a man in full plate should be practically immune to most weapons. By the High Middle Ages, knights had stopped wearing shields and carrying broadswords and had switched to battle "axes" (more like picks) to puncture weak points in one another's armor.

Increasing the Crit Threat Ranges also helps dramatically.

...including longbows which, AFAIK, historically made full-plate useless.

As I understand it, English longbowmen made mounted knights useless because they easily killed the horses, not the riders. Full plate armor is often armor "of proof", tested against a crossbow bolt or pistol shot. (Who knows how strong the bow was or how much powder was in the pistol, but the armor was expected to take such abuse.)

Having a high strength score becomes even more important than in the PHB rules.

Yes, but to-hit is based of Dex, not Str, even for melee attacks.

But I would like to create a system for character generation much like CoC, only with additional options from the GnG rules. Any suggestions as to how this could be done?

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[The Onion Knight]

Neb,
Our group used GnG rules for a while in our d&d campaign. Before we started we saw the same problem with bows vs. armor that you do. It was easily solved, however, by raising the penetration values of the bows and crossbows. Try that yourself.
Also we thought the G&G system would be more deadly, and I thought it would lead quicker combats (due to higher death tolls). Wrong on both counts.
It is a good system, though.

 

[LostSoul]

Doesn't Gim & Gritty have a Called Shot system to bypass armour's DR?

 

[mmadsen]

For anyone interested in checking out Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty Hit Point and Combat Rules, they're at: http://www.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com/downloads/GrimNGrittyHitPointRules.pdf

 

[King_Stannis]

as the onion knight says, it is not that grim at low levels. if the dm doesn't throw outrageous stuff at the pc's, they have a better chance at surviving under the g&g rules than the regular rules - at lower levels. we set aside the rules after 3rd level, but it is a good system. combats take a bit longer, though. if you run a combat light campaign go for it, but adjust the penetration values of crossbows and longbows up. if you run a combat heavy campaign, give it a try - but you may find it cumbersome at times. it requires A LOT more work from DM's (ie figuring out the enemies defense, protection and hitpoints).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Re: Re: The Grim-n-Gritty Rules

As I understand it, English longbowmen made mounted knights useless because they easily killed the horses, not the riders. Full plate armor is often armor "of proof", tested against a crossbow bolt or pistol shot. (Who knows how strong the bow was or how much powder was in the pistol, but the armor was expected to take such abuse.)

Actually, that's not entirely accurate.

The English longbow was quite capable of punching through armor, although it was designed more for use against chain than plate, given the era it first came into common use. While I can see it being somewhat less effective against plate, it should absolutely not be useless against it.

Then we've got crossbows, which tore through plate armor rather handily at close range. And plate armor was never able to stand up to firearms. That's why heavy armor went out of style.

 

[apoptosis]

Before we switched back over to Rolemaster we used the Grim'n'Gritty system and i still use it when we play D&D occasionally.

It is less deadly at low levels and much deadlier at high levels compared to fighting similar creatures as you would under the normal rules. You can still be hurt by low level critters and npc's even at high levels and big critters that can do enough damage to get past armor can really kill you quickly but have so many hits and usually good armor that killing them can be tough and entertaining. A high level party would have a hard time against any large or larger high level critter of a similar CR

I much prefer it to the normal system but then again i dont particularly like the normal system all that much anyways (dont dislike it particularly either pretty neutral...I will say the listed smackdowns didnt help things much).

I do suggest altering the magic system a little, as the magic-using characters can become pretty dominant (of course i play low magic-item games so i had to do it anyways....which brings up the point were we really playing D&D by then ).

Apop