The Guards at the Gate Quote

[technoextreme]

We already covered the fact that everyone isn't running their game as a plot driven story. This also ignores the fact that it can serve to illustrate the player's characters through interactions with the NPC's.

Nope. Even the most basic of dungeon crawls is plot driven.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Yet the question posed by the OP was why people had issues with the quote. But if you want to start a thread about the advice in the DMG and whether people had issues with that, feel free to... I might even give my own opinion on it.

Sorry, I assumed you had moved into the core books since I don't recall skill challenges being mentioned in the preview being discussed in the OP.

Regardless, if we restrict ourselves to Wyatt's quote, he only mentions Encounters, not Fights and Skill Challenges, so an encounter with the gate guards at the PCs request is not out of the realm of thought. I took his meaning to be not to force a mundane encounter upon the players. I also take anything any game designer says as opinion and guidelines, since the Rule Zero days of first edition.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I see two different things at work here:

1. The intent of the quote is pretty much to skip over boring stuff instead of spending hours on it. The context makes this even more clear.

2. However, when WotC took over D&D, someone decided that the writers didn't need to confuse the players with options. It is a clear editorial decision even in the 3E DMG (which is, however, still better than what came later in this regard).

We really don't need game texts written to an 8th grade level, like newspapers, in the fear that discussing a few options of how you can do something, and why, will totally paralyze the poor player. I'm sure, as with 3E Attacks of Opportunities, it will so paralyze occasionally.

It was particularly glaring in the 4E DMG, when they went to the trouble to talk about different playstyles, but then refused to provide much information on how to support those different playstyles with options.

(And no, it doesn't need to be written in High Gygaxian, either. There is a middle ground betwen High Gygaxian and a Reuters news feed.)

 

[Imaro]

Nope. Even the most basic of dungeon crawls is plot driven.

Uhm, ok. Well my games are character-driven as opposed to plot-driven... so again, no they don't have to be plot-driven.

 

[jonesy]

-snip-

I've been meaning to mention this to you at other times, but perhaps your nick should be "Sane Jerome", or something to that effect.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Uhm, ok. Well my games are character-driven as opposed to plot-driven... so again, no they don't have to be plot-driven.

A plot cannot drive a game. I think the difference each of you is imagining is whether the plot is driven by the players or the DM. Both of the games mentioned are probably character-driven plots, while Imaro, you are most likely railing against DM-driven plots. It really boils down to semantics and we've been through many long threads talking past each other on the exact meanings.

 

[OnlineDM]

We really don't need game texts written to an 8th grade level, like newspapers, in the fear that discussing a few options of how you can do something, and why, will totally paralyze the poor player.

I'm going totally off-topic here, but you raise an interesting point.

I completely agree that a good game book should present options, help the DM think about different ways of handling things, and so on. I'm on your side there.

But a completely separate question in my mind is whether the book should be written at an 8th-grade level. What grade level SHOULD the DMG and PHB be written at?

Honestly, given that a lot of RPGers got into the game around ages 10-12, I would think that the books should be accessible to someone at, say, a 6th-grade reading level. Right?

I just never thought about what "reading level" D&D books were written at before. It feels to me like they should be kept at middle school level if they're going to work for the target audience of new players.

And I say this as someone who got into D&D at age 31, just to be clear!

 

[Mark CMG]

I personally feel some people will read what they want to read into a quote then get upset about it.

(. . .)

I generally try to give people the benefit of the doubt as to intent, and usually find most people don't have any kind of hidden meaning to their words.

I see. Just some people then.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I see two different things at work here:

1. The intent of the quote is pretty much to skip over boring stuff instead of spending hours on it. The context makes this even more clear.

2. However, when WotC took over D&D, someone decided that the writers didn't need to confuse the players with options. It is a clear editorial decision even in the 3E DMG (which is, however, still better than what came later in this regard).

We really don't need game texts written to an 8th grade level, like newspapers, in the fear that discussing a few options of how you can do something, and why, will totally paralyze the poor player. I'm sure, as with 3E Attacks of Opportunities, it will so paralyze occasionally.

It was particularly glaring in the 4E DMG, when they went to the trouble to talk about different playstyles, but then refused to provide much information on how to support those different playstyles with options.

(And no, it doesn't need to be written in High Gygaxian, either. There is a middle ground betwen High Gygaxian and a Reuters news feed.)

See Dick. Dick is a fighter. He fights monsters. Fight Dick, fight!

See Jane. Jane is a wizard. She casts spells. Cast Jane, cast!

This is Puff. Puff is Jane's familiar. Puff does nothing at all. Sleep Puff, sleep!

Dick and Jane have formed a party....

The Auld Grump, gods, I hated those books... I was already reading by the time I started school. Dick & Jane is a big come down when you are already reading Jules Verne....

 

[jonesy]

But a completely separate question in my mind is whether the book should be written at an 8th-grade level. What grade level SHOULD the DMG and PHB be written at?

This isn't necessarily an answer to that, but I think that the players guides should be as accessible and easy to use as possible, while the DM's book should have as many options as possible.