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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9009512" data-attributes="member: 87792">So I've been complaining for a while, but decided to run some numbers on the warlock combat experience and it was even worse than I thought. Essentially my calculations showed that from levels 1-10 (i.e. where statistics show 90% of the game is played):<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It is almost never worth casting a spell in combat before level 9</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eldritch Blasting Warlock is an inferior Archery Ranger in combat. (And for all the Warlock's out of combat utility the Ranger has a lot too)</li> </ul>It's almost never worth casting a Standard Action levelled spell in combat before level 9This came from an analysis of Eldritch Blast plus Agonizing Blast damage and comparing it to benchmark spells of the right level.From levels 1-4You only get first level spells, and Eldritch Blast plus Agonizing Blast plus Hex does d10 + 3 + 1d6 Force damage (average 12 - or 13 at level 4 if you sorted your stats and feat correctly). Good benchmark first level spells include Chaos Bolt (2d8+d6 = 12.5) and Chromatic Orb (3d8 = 13.5). And while these do do more damage than Eldritch Blast they don't do enough to make it worth burning one of your only 2-3 spell slots unless you have an exceptional set up (for example three people under a Burning Hands).From levels 5-8You should have hit your casting stat of 18 at level 4, and you get your second ray on the Eldritch Blast any more, meaning that your first level standard action spells are competing with something twice as powerful as something that used to be able to compete with them. But you now have second level spells. How does the upgraded Eldritch Blast do against the second level spells? Eldritch Blast is doing 2*(d10+4) damage (average 19). Scorching Ray meanwhile does 3*2d6 (average 21) Acid Arrow does 4d4 + 2d4 damage (average 15). Heat Metal does 2d8, then 2d8 as a bonus action (no save) so uses concentration and takes two rounds to catch up. I'm not saying that Eldritch Blast is better than these spells, of course. But I'm saying that the difference between a two-beam Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast even without Hex and a second level spell is so minor that it's very rarely worth wasting one of your 2-3 2nd level spell slots on.There are basically four combat spells that aren't standard actions; Hex to increase your damage, Misty Step to make a quick escape, Shield for when someone attacks you, and Hellish Rebuke for when they actually hit you. And you're far too squishy to want that to happen.It is therefore entirely possible to play a half-caster warlock, to build  for combat, and to never have cast a spell in combat other than Hex for the entire duration of levels 1-8.As an aside Hex got savagely nerfed because the ill thought through change to warlock casting clearly wasn't communicated to the design team. Hex lasting for 8 hours as a third level spell makes sense because fifth level warlocks can't cast it at a lower level than that. If Hex scales with the number of beams in your Eldritch Blast (as it would with Pact Magic) it's an overall slight buff. But if you don't have those high level slots then Hex only adding to the first attack means it doesn't help your second beams at all.The Eldritch Blast Warlock is an inferior Archery Ranger in combat at level 10 and belowThis works by pretty simple symmetry.Longbow + Archery Style > Eldritch Blast + Agonizing BlastThis is a matter of symmetry with the Ranger winning at just about every single point.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">D10 + Stat Modifier (Agonizing Blast) < d8 + Stat Modifier Damage with +2 to hit (Archery style)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hex < Hunter's Mark. Hunter's Mark applies to both arrows at level 5. Hunter's Mark also doesn't require concentration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spell Sniper < Sharpshooter (they're almost mirrors but the 600ft range without Disadvantage beats the extra 60ft of range). And then there's Crossbow Expert.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Damage buffs from the subclass. At least Hunter in D&Done and all the others except Beastmaster in current 5e.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Better magic gear; the Rod of the Pact Keeper requires attunement unlike basic magic weapons and there isn't much else to improve Eldritch Blast. Archers have basic unattuned bows, special bows, bracers of archery, and probably more.</li> </ul>This all adds up. Eldritch Blast before level 11 is simply slightly worse in a whole lot of ways than a ranger with a longbow all of which stack with each other.Even level 11's third attack is at best barely enough to catch upFor a worked level 11 example we can let the the Warlock has a +2 Pact Rod and the ranger a +2 generic weapon and bracers of archery; both are using one attunement slot and similar rarity (the bracers only being uncommon). Both have a primary stat of 19, which is going to go up to 20 with the Level 12 feat (having started at 15+2 at level 1).<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlock: 3 * (5.5 + 4 (stat) + 2 (pact weapon)) attacks + 3.5 (L1 Hex) =  38</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ranger (with longbow not XBE).  2x(4.5 + 4 (stat) + 2 (Weapon) +2 (Bracers of Archery) +3.5 (Hunter's Mark)) + d8 (Hunter L3 feature) - 35.5 damage with the +2 to hit from Archery Style</li> </ul>Even the 50% damage boost at level 11 has only just brought the warlock back to around parity and I think with the +2 to hit from the Archery style the ranger is still significantly ahead.  That's how far behind the warlock fell by level 10 in terms of ability to shoot vs ability with a longbow.The Ranger's spells actually help you inflict damageAs mentioned Hunter's Mark >> OneD&D Hex. But it goes way beyond that; the only pre-L9 spell that clearly increases your damage is Hellish Rebuke, and that requires being hit. Rangers have "Smite Spells" like Ensnaring Strike and Hail of Thorns that don't compete with shooting people with arrows, but allow you to shoot them and have an extra effect.Fundamentally this is part of a core problem that the Ranger's spells were mostly designed for the ranger to be ... a ranger. The spells on the arcane list (with the notable exception of Hellish Rebuke) were either designed for a full casting wizard/sorcerer or a pact magic warlock and all need tweaking for this sort of change to work at all.And although it's not impossible to make the case that the warlock has more out of combat utility from invocations and the pact boon than the ranger does overall the ranger is still, well, a ranger, with Expertise and utility both from casting and non-casting.This isn't to say there are no improvements from going half-caster; predictability of power level is one, and the other is Shield works as defensive tech when the existing Warlock defensive invocations don't (Mage Armour on a caster that can wear armour? As a full invocation? And False Life is fine at low level but needs to be tweaked into something that scales; there also needs to be Hellish-Rebuke-as-an-Invocation).</blockquote>

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