The Historical Importance of Ron Edwards' Sorcerer [+]

[Campbell]

What this thread is about?
Discussing the impact that Sorcerer has had on our hobby by helping to popularize things like scene framing, playing to the characters' dramatic needs and emotional safety techniques in roleplaying games.

What this thread is not about?
Discussing the validity of the Big Model, The Forge Essays, The Forge as a community, Ron as a person or comments he made he made about other games. I'm open to direct criticism of Sorcerer, but please keep it to the actual game rather than its author or the community that spawned it.

My Roleplaying Journey
Way back in 2005/2006 I had begun to sour on playing and running roleplaying games. I wanted a focus on more personal stories where who the characters were really mattered. Party based adventuring had kind of started feel stale to me after 8 years in the hobby. At that point I had been a member of this community since 2000 when it was still Eric Noah's forum. At that time there was a strong throughline of debates on these boards is roleplaying games were an appropriate medium for the sort of personal journeys I was interested in. I had already had a significant amount of experience with games like Vampire and Legends of the Five Rings which seemed to promise what I was looking for, but only through GM led illusionism.

Some members of these boards (@fusangite and @SweeneyTodd) at the time talked about a different sort of game. One that did not involve illusionism, but still was focused on personal narratives. Those discussions led me to The Forge and more importantly a little game called Sorcerer. Reading Sorcerer was like a revelation to me at that time. The idea that we could start with the characters first and build around them and that play could focus on resolving their personal stories and that it would end once those were done. Like just that was staggering, but then it followed with the idea that the player characters did not need to be a discrete group, but that we could just follow them around individually and frame scenes that would lead them to interacting with each other in whatever way they chose.

Getting to run and play Sorcerer was the first time I really felt satisfied with roleplaying. This journey is not my alone. It's one that has been shared by many of us. The creative movement that Sorcerer spawned basically created a whole new category of games. Ones that focused first and foremost on the player characters and addressing who they are under stress. I have since learned to enjoy more traditional play, but Sorcerer sparked my love for our hobby.

That's all for now. Soon I'll go into the impact I feel Sorcerer has had outside of the category of games it has spawned.

 

[Manbearcat]

As much as anything, Sorcerer contributed a game paradigm that was anti-GM Force (this is not the GM's story...GM's should never subordinate player input by replacing it with the GM's own desired outcomes) and "Kicker-forward." These are huge pieces of TTRPG technology that contributed to subsequent design (more on that below).

What is the action/crux of player-character as protagonist? Kicker answers that. Something personally significant, always provocative and never casual, never dictate character actions, NOT performative or aspirational scripts.

Whose lead do we follow? The players (via authored Kicker).

What happens when we resolve a Kicker? Development that significantly changes the character, creates emergent setting, and culminates in a new Kicker that propels play in a significant direction (or retirement/game ending).

Look at the design impact of this:

4e D&D:

* Character Theme along with Background/Class/Race (crux for Heroic Tier protagonism) + Player-authored Quests > resolve > Paragon Path (crux for Paragon Tier protagonism)+ Player-authored Quests > resolve > Epic Destiny (crux for Epic Tier protagonism) + Player-authored Quests > resolve

 

[niklinna]

I found my groove in a more roundabout way, first with Spirit of the Century's aspects and a couple other things, leading to games like Apocalypse World and its many spawn, and currently Blades in the Dark. Somewhere along the way I came upon Ron & company's essays and digested what they had to say, more or less. But I never did play Sorcerer. I did finally manage to read the book, though, and it was quite illuminating. I had many moments of "Oh so this is what he meant!" Even though I'd been playing games that did those things, seeing some of the original implementations of the ideas just made things so much clearer. I really wish I'd been more active in gaming when all that stuff was being discussed and created.

Edit to add: Also I would love to actually play Sorcerer sometime! I had originally let it slide as too narrow based on a fundamental misunderstanding. I thought it was about playing a traditional party of warlock-type characters, and how interesting could that be? Even though I'd read Ron's essays! I really should have known better. The text makes it very clear that neither of those is the case, and that what a sorcerer is, is wide open to a galaxy of interpretations.

 

[niklinna]

Oh also, I wonder if Sorcerer inspired Jonathan Stroud in writing his Bartimaeus novels (which I quite enjoyed reading).

 

[pemerton]

I've never read or played Sorcerer. I know a bit about some of the techniques it introduces (eg kickers) from reading Edwards's essays and posts on The Forge. Those essays had a big impact on my approach to Rolemaster, and to 4e D&D, and in my RPGing since. I put them up there with Luke Crane and Vincent Baker for their affect on how I go about RPGing.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Sorcerer is a game I'm really glad exists. I may not like how it's written, but its Velvet-Underground-like influence is pretty undeniable.

 

[Aldarc]

Sorcerer is a game I'm really glad exists. I may not like how it's written, but its Velvet-Underground-like influence is pretty undeniable.

I remember saying the same about Apocalypse World on Twitter. Vincent Baker approved. Sure it's stylistically abrasive, but it felt like everyone who read it went out and made their own RPG.

 

[niklinna]

Sorcerer is a game I'm really glad exists. I may not like how it's written, but its Velvet-Underground-like influence is pretty undeniable.

What specific criticisms do you have of the text? I would have appreciated more explanation of the uses of Lore and rituals. The organization also assumed you'd be reading it twice; it could have benefitted from a good overview before all the chapters on the particulars.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

What specific criticisms do you have of the text? I would have appreciated more explanation of the uses of Lore and rituals. The organization also assumed you'd be reading it twice; it could have benefitted from a good overview before all the chapters on the particulars.

I don't want to get overly spicy in a + thread, but the writing in Sorcerer is too conversational for my tastes. It feels like you're getting the rationale and backstory for every single element, and that (to me) self-indulgence and "let me tell you about my campaign" quality veers into parody with the annotated text. Like, the original text is already annotating itself at every turn. Adding director's commentary to your director's commentary is too much for me—shades of The Rehearsal without the irony.

Then again, I only read it a year or so ago. At the time Edwards wrote it there were lots of valid reasons to present a game like a manifesto. I just kinda wish there was a 50-page version now that cut to the chase and didn't constantly explain itself. If I had to use the book at the table I'd tear my hair out.

 

[niklinna]

I don't want to get overly spicy in a + thread, but the writing in Sorcerer is too conversational for my tastes. It feels like you're getting the rationale and backstory for every single element, and that (to me) self-indulgence and "let me tell you about my campaign" quality veers into parody with the annotated text. Like, the original text is already annotating itself at every turn. Adding director's commentary to your director's commentary is too much for me—shades of The Rehearsal without the irony.

I should have just read the text itself on the first go, and then gone back and read the annotations. That's more on me, but a lot of the annotations did seem more self-indulgent than helpful, or they'd call out a deficit he recognized after experience and reflection, but not actually address the deficit. (I haven't read the supplements to see what they fill in.)

@Campbell specifically stated that he's open to criticism of Sorcerer itself, by the way.

Then again, I only read it a year or so ago. At the time Edwards wrote it there were lots of valid reasons to present a game like a manifesto. I just kinda wish there was a 50-page version now that cut to the chase and didn't constantly explain itself. If I had to use the book at the table I'd tear my hair out.

Yeah, I agree that a whole new edition would make a lot of sense. He could axe the things he called out as mistakes or things that didn't pan out (or he could warn against them). He could fill in the gaps he noted, too.

 

[niklinna]

I remember saying the same about Apocalypse World on Twitter. Vincent Baker approved. Sure it's stylistically abrasive, but it felt like everyone who read it went out and made their own RPG.

I remember being delightedly shocked by the in-your-face naughtywordness of Apocalypse World, but annoyed by the casual dropping of new terms without defining them—not even elsewhere in the book! Worse, the terms were just names plugged into a snowclone template that was itself never explained. Oh, sure, we all know what that is now, but at the time it felt like Vincent was just being a snot. That snowclone model sure had viral memetic legs, though.

Anyhow this is an aside. Back to Sorcerer!

 

[Blue Orange]

I thought it was very clever and creative and inspirational and atmospheric when I read it and it inspired me to write some very bad short fiction. Talking from the 5e perspective, was that where the X-Card, session 0, etc. started? Were the themes, paths, quests, etc. also inspired by Burning Wheel? (Do we have any of the designers talking about this stuff on the record?)

 

[Campbell]

I thought it was very clever and creative and inspirational and atmospheric when I read it and it inspired me to write some very bad short fiction. Talking from the 5e perspective, was that where the X-Card, session 0, etc. started? Were the themes, paths, quests, etc. also inspired by Burning Wheel? (Do we have any of the designers talking about this stuff on the record?)

The X-Card was a standalone product that came much later, but Sorcerer did introduce Lines and Veils (which are referenced in Pathfinder Second Edition) in Sex and Sorcery. As far as I am aware Lines and Veils were the first treatment of emotional safety techniques in a role-playing text.

Sorcerer wasn't the game that coined Session Zero, but it was the first game I am aware of that said setting up the game was something the whole group should be involved with.

Setting it all up

The whole play group should get involved. Set aside the time and enjoy the chance to talk about the game you’ll play. Get people thinking about their characters, and it’s perfectly OK if players know something about each others’ characters before starting. Some of the Kickers can be rewritten to reflect overlapping character histories. And if someone starts shouting, arguing, or otherwise being a pill at this point, you might as well find out now.

Because the actual stories told by Sorcerer are so individualized, the game benefits if everyone knows what kind of story is being developed. The GM should take time to stew over the characters and compare them to his or her notions of what the game’s about. Look at the characters’ demons and their Binding rolls to decide how to role-play them. Also, the GM should not feel afraid to reject a player-character or to demand modifications.

How many players? Each character comes equipped with a ready-made NPC, the demon, who will be an active participant in every scene. Coordinating all the sorcerers, all the demons, and all the other NPCs in a fight scene can be very challenging. Of course, it’s up to individual GMs, but four players or less is a good start. I prefer three at most.

This is pretty good stuff for its time, but a little raw. Some of the language used is a little too forceful for my tastes, but for its time it describes a very collaborative process, including working with players to work out what Humanity looks like, what their demons are like and the NPC diagram built around their characters.

 

[Campbell]

I don't want to get overly spicy in a + thread, but the writing in Sorcerer is too conversational for my tastes. It feels like you're getting the rationale and backstory for every single element, and that (to me) self-indulgence and "let me tell you about my campaign" quality veers into parody with the annotated text. Like, the original text is already annotating itself at every turn. Adding director's commentary to your director's commentary is too much for me—shades of The Rehearsal without the irony.

Then again, I only read it a year or so ago. At the time Edwards wrote it there were lots of valid reasons to present a game like a manifesto. I just kinda wish there was a 50-page version now that cut to the chase and didn't constantly explain itself. If I had to use the book at the table I'd tear my hair out.

It's definitely not a very polished product. It's Ron's first work and was originally shared as a text document over Usenet. It's pretty much the equivalent of a hiphop demo tape. Raw, unpolished, but with a lot of promise.

The Play Sorcerer blog by Christopher Kubasik (lead designer of TORG and Earthdawn) really helped me to refine my understanding of the game.

Play Sorcerer

Thoughts and Ideas about Ron Edward's SORCERER Role Playing Game

playsorcerer.wordpress.com

I do agree a more polished text with an actual editor would be really useful. The supplements are much more polished though still pretty conversational. I do kind of like that, but I'm also a fan of the way Apocalypse World is written.

 

[niklinna]

The Play Sorcerer blog by Christopher Kubasik (lead designer of TORG and Earthdawn) really helped me to refine my understanding of the game.

Play Sorcerer

Thoughts and Ideas about Ron Edward's SORCERER Role Playing Game

playsorcerer.wordpress.com

I rolled back to the beginning of that blog, and I suspect from the opening post that this is gonna be a heck of a read.

 

[pemerton]

I rolled back to the beginning of that blog, and I suspect from the opening post that this is gonna be a heck of a read.

If you've never read the Interactive Toolkit, it's terrific. I used to link to it quite often in my posts on these boards.

 

[chaochou]

I joined The Forge about the time HeroWars came out (2001-2ish) specifically to find guidance on how it all worked. The publisher sub-forums were among the most active, so Sorcerer was a game I'd read a lot about before I ever owned a copy. The discussions at the time on kickers and bangs was extremely influential for me. Also the prepping of relationship maps.

Bangs haven't been discussed here yet, but are a big deal in Sorcerer - which is to say there's a super-interesting idea of playing characters with multiple wants and putting them into conflict with each other to see what happens. That really spoke to me and informed a lot of my play. I'm sure it informed AWs 'build pc npc triangles' advice.

 

[chaochou]

I'd also say that if you read Vincent's advice 'there are no status quos in Apocalypse World' you can easily look back and see how it was Sorcerer that was a solid example of embedding that in a game.

I don't have the rulebook to hand and I can't discuss the rules text in isolation because RE was, in that era, a constant stream of Sorcerer actual play examples. I mean he'd be running games with his friends and be posting detailed actual play commentaries of the questions he asked and the answers he got to create characters, and demons, and then describing his own processes for turning that into relationship maps, ideas and framing for bangs, and so on.

So I was lucky to absorb some techniques and ideas which helped enormously, both with HeroWars and later when I bought and played Sorcerer.

 

[Manbearcat]

I'd also say that if you read Vincent's advice 'there are no status quos in Apocalypse World' you can easily look back and see how it was Sorcerer that was a solid example of embedding that in a game.

I don't have the rulebook to hand and I can't discuss the rules text in isolation because RE was, in that era, a constant stream of Sorcerer actual play examples. I mean he'd be running games with his friends and be posting detailed actual play commentaries of the questions he asked and the answers he got to create characters, and demons, and then describing his own processes for turning that into relationship maps, ideas and framing for bangs, and so on.

So I was lucky to absorb some techniques and ideas which helped enormously, both with HeroWars and later when I bought and played Sorcerer.

We were talking about this, so I figured I'd post something quickly. If you look at Apocalypse World's collection of the below (among other things...but these specifically), you can see the DNA of Sorcerer Bangs:

Look through crosshairs

Ask provocative questions and build on the answers

Be a fan of the players’ characters

* Everything is a target.

* There are no status quos.

* Care about what the players care about...through their PCs...by aggressively attacking it via premise-relevant, provocative, aggressive situation-framing.


Relevant Sorcerer Text:

Bangs are those moments when the characters realize they have a problem right now and have to get moving to deal with it. It can be as simple as a hellacious demon crashing through the skylight and attacking the characters, or as subtle as the voice of the long-dead murder victim answering when they call the phone number they found in the new murder victim’s pockets.

In order to get to the Bangs if the players are being dense, or if the gm is letting them flounder around, the gm should begin to ask leading questions.

 

[niklinna]

If you've never read the Interactive Toolkit, it's terrific. I used to link to it quite often in my posts on these boards.

And how! Those first few posts really knocked my socks off. Imagine my reaction if I'd read them when he put them up!