D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[Guest 85555]

There's a difference between disagreeing on something and when one party keeps asking for evidence when that evidence is presented again and again.

The issue isn’t the evidence existing or not. These are primary sources of information and people disagree over their meaning.

 

[tetrasodium]

The relevance seemed stated up front in the big book preface, that there are elements in the OD&D books and the development material that shows sexism and casual slavery and such and that the reader is being forewarned.

I am not familiar enough with the totality of OD&D or any of the development draft material and correspondences in the book to say how that played out in the 500 pages of the book's OD&D material.

The do not talk about religion thing axed supplement IV entirely from the project though.

No, my reason for stating the relevance was not shown is because the example is not about his actual work & keeps turning back to "gygax [personally] was sexist" when it comes time to extend that letter to europa to anything specific in d&d, true or not that's not relevant to his work on early d&d itself without further links in the chain. Logic problem faced with extending the example to any of the actual work in question?... that's "gaslighting". Relevance not recognized because problems with it were dismissed as "gaslighting"?... The same person who dismissed those problems as gaslighting declares that is "sea lioning".

 

[Azzy]

The issue isn’t the evidence existing or not. These are primary sources of information and people disagree over their meaning.

Looks more like the people denying or downplaying Gygax's sexism are intentionally trying to create a narrative that is in denial of reality.

 

[mamba]

No, I don't think you understand what is being asked, that or you very much do understand and know that you are uincapable of drawing a link so just declare it to be "sea lioning" "gaslighting" & similar.

I have no intention of giving you examples, just so you can excuse them away. They are out there, chances are you know them already, me listing them will not make any difference.

 

[mamba]

We disagree. And that is fine. But calling him a negligent father, that goes beyond differing interpretations of intentions behind his quotes related to sexism

yep, that might be differing interpretations of his actions

 

[mamba]

@mamba calling Gygax a negligent father because he war gamed a lot and was a cobbler for a while

more the obsessively wargamer part, the cobbler only entered the picture because he considered wargamers to be elite and at least middle class when he was nowhere near middle class at the time

 

[mamba]

The issue isn’t the evidence existing or not. These are primary sources of information and people disagree over their meaning.

no, they keep asking for examples over and over as if none had ever been presented, that is not disagreeing about examples both sides are aware of

 

[tetrasodium]

I have no intention of giving you examples, just so you can excuse them away. They are out there, chances are you know them already, me listing them will not make any difference.

Se we are back to " it's relevant because I say it is and if you question that you are defending sexism or sea lining"

What exact point are you so passionately trying to avoid making?if the answer is "gygax was sexist", that immediately loops back to how is that relevant to his work.

 

[Reef]

The issue isn’t the evidence existing or not. These are primary sources of information and people disagree over their meaning.

Disagreeing with their meaning? On these very boards, he posted that, due to their biology, women’s brains weren’t capable of enjoying games on the same level as men. Much earlier in his career, he was quoted as saying women “ruined war games and war gamers”.

Tell us again how we are missing context, or that was just his jovial sense of humour. Or that we are intentionally misreading his intentions.

 

[Guest 85555]

Disagreeing with their meaning? On these very boards, he posted that, due to their biology, women’s brains weren’t capable of enjoying games on the same level as men. Much earlier in his career, he was quoted as saying women “ruined war games and war gamers”.

Tell us again how we are missing context, or that was just his jovial sense of humour. Or that we are intentionally misreading his intentions.

Yes people are disagreeing over what he meant. Sone say he was deeply sexist, done say he was sexist or moderately so, but a product of his times, some say he may have been sexist but people are gathering disparate quotes and overstating the case, and done say he wasn’t sexist. I’ve said I agree with Heidi Gygax’s assessment. I think he was a product of his time and upbringing but was also bristly and given to sarcasm. So I read his quotes with those two things in mind. Now people can disagree. But I also think treating your interpretations of what he said and intended as facts, is not accurate. The facts are what he said. What he meant is what we are debating and reasonable people can disagree there