The Impasse

[DimitriX]

One of the things that I've been interested in is why some people seem to "blindly" agree with WotC actions even when those actions, if performed by another company, would gather huge customer uprising. How many times have you been on the forums of a MMORPG and seen people threatening class action lawsuits because some class got nerfed or a notoriety system was put into place for player killers?

I think some of the threads have put their finger on the issue: this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. If we were talking about Conan 2e or True20 or Mutants and Masterminds, then I don't think people would really be as bothered either way. But, this is the game that many of us grew up playing. for most of us, this was our first rpg. This is also THE rpg in pop culture. Most people don't know anything about roleplaying games, but they know DnD. So, when we see DnD go through some changes it becomes much more personal because we have much more invested in it.

I think one of the issues is that some people are associating DnD with WotC and some are not. I think those that associate DnD with WotC (whether consciously or not) are the ones that defend WotC the most adamantly even when WotC actions negatively affect them (albeit perhaps in minor ways). However, the folks who do not associate WotC with DnD (and I'm one of them) believe that the game or something like it would exist if WotC disappeared tomorrow. This belief may or may not be true, but I think it is what some people believe.

So, I think many of these discussions related to WotC corporate decisions and edition wars are just people talking past each other. If you love DnD and you believe that DnD can't exist without WotC, then of course you have to love WotC too. However, if you love DnD and you believe that it is YOUR game and not theirs, then WotC is merely a custodian of a legacy. And, if you believe that the custodian is no longer acting in the best interest of DnD, then it must be time for a new custodian.

This might seem like nothing more than mental masturbation, but I feel that it is important to understand someone's perspective when getting in these kinds of discussions which can sometimes get heated. And, my guess this is why some people will never be convinced one way or another.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

rather then retype a whole bunch of stuff...I am quiteing myself from the orginal thread this came from:

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

let me tell you why I side with WotC...3 reasons from least important to most...

1) I feel that they need defending, I hate all the mud being slung there way
2) I dislike illigal activaty being glorfied...I hate when people say prostitution is a victomless crime...or that Pot isn't real drugs, or that power cards are not IP theift and piracy...
3) 12 years ago I watched as the big dog in the RPG companies was delt some bad blows...almost fatal (TSR), and that would have ment no new D&D items...at the time I didn't think there would be a 3rd edtion, but was worried about my fav two magazines... When that happened I realized if D&D went down the next big company was (and still is ) White Wolf, and I can not see them filling TSRs shoes (not then not now)...When WotC bought TSR in 99 I was the only of my friends relived...they all thought they would turn D&D into magic the gathering...But I saw something...my fav game living and getting a second chance...I was a big supporter, and still am becuse I NEED WotC to do well...


You see when WotC does what is in there best intrest they do what is in my best intrest...becuse it helps keep D&D alive and well.

If my Cable company goes out of buisness I will not have no cable, someone will buy it and keep charging us for cable, so I don't care if Comcast stays in buisness or not...same with Dell Computers if they drop someone will make computers still...

If WotC fails, or if they drop 4e(lets be honnest magic is still going strong) then I lose...I lose my new source books and magazines and settings. And I feel (with no real evidance just a feeling) that the whole RPG comunity would take a hit...maybe a fatal one.

The other companies I like: Mongoose, Green Roninin, Palladium, Goodman, Necromancer... I don't think any of them can fill a void that Wotc would create...

you see it as:

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

but I don't see there best and our best as exclusive...I want Mike Mearls and Scott Rouse, and Bill Saversek(I can't spell his name) to still have jobs next year...I want them to work on PHBIII, and IV, and V and VI...and I want to see 5e and 6e...I hope in 2028 to be enjoying D&D 7e, and to be on these boards (yes morris I want to still be on enworld with my holo vid projector interface thingies) having this discussion again......

 

[DimitriX]

Yep. That was one of the posts that put me on this idea.

 

[Thasmodious]

But...prostitution is a victimless crime and marijuana isn't a drug, it's a plant. It just grows like that. You have to do things to drugs chemically, I don't know the recipe, I'm just saying.

 

[Kzach]

But...prostitution is a victimless crime and marijuana isn't a drug, it's a plant. It just grows like that. You have to do things to drugs chemically, I don't know the recipe, I'm just saying.

I think we both deserve a cookie.

 

[Shemeska]

rather then retype a whole bunch of stuff...I am quiteing[sic] myself from the orginal thread this came from:

What DimitriX said.

 

[Nightson]

Taking one person, then using them to draw a broad generalization about a large group of people is not sound.

 

[Rechan]

How many times have you been on the forums of a MMORPG and seen people threatening class action lawsuits because some class got nerfed or a notoriety system was put into place for player killers?

Are you saying that you don't see enough blind hatred of WotC? Or that you don't see enough people making hyperbolic stupid claims because they're upset with how a company changed their product?

What exactly is your point there? Because a class action lawsuit because the game changed is... there's not a polite way to really phrase how dumb that is.

I think one of the issues is that some people are associating DnD with WotC and some are not. I think those that associate DnD with WotC (whether consciously or not) are the ones that defend WotC the most adamantly even when WotC actions negatively affect them (albeit perhaps in minor ways).

I've seen many people who make the WotC=D&D connection be against 4e, because they think WotC is corrupting what D&D is. That because WotC = D&D, and WotC is wrong, they're making D&D bad.

You really want to see some hatred of WotC? Step over to Paizo's boards. You would think the decision to discontinue print Dragon and Dungeon was on par with running over someone's first pet.

I don't think WotC is an angel, or even "good". When I see WotC, I see the designers. And quite frankly, I think the designers are good guys. I like their ideas. They stop by here and post occasionally. So I consider harsh, vindictive, demonizing criticism an attack at the them. WotC may be a corporation, but it's also a business run by gamers, for gamers. The people at WotC like D&D. I don't doubt their like of the game. So I don't see the point in attacking them for desiring to ruin D&D.

Criticize the content of the decisions, sure. But to attributing ulterior motives, that's unfair.

I also object to the demonizing of WotC for no reason than them doing something different or doing it badly. Take for instance the GSL. Many, many threads, people say that WotC just wants to kill third party publications, that they have no respect, don't want them to play, etc. That the neutered GSL is to kill all competition. That they're taking forever because they want 3PP to starve to death.

That's just uncalled for. Especially when people like Scott Rouse are working hard on it, but they get crapped on because he's not making it priority 1. Anyone who has worked in a bureaucracy knows how slow things move, especially when you have multiple departments involved.

I think there are legitimate grounds to criticise WotC over. In a reasonable manner. But I'll defend WotC when I see unreasonable, venomous criticism. And the lion's share of what I have seen has been unreasonable.

However, if you love DnD and you believe that it is YOUR game and not theirs, then WotC is merely a custodian of a legacy.

And if you love D&D and believe it's YOUR game, nothing the custodian of a legacy can do to it to take that away from you. Nothing that the custodian can do can stop you from playing what you like, or enjoying it, or what memories it left with you. Like you said, it's personal. But no change can change what it means to you, what it meant to you, and what you did with it when you were a kid. For instance, no matter what Disney does now, it won't change the memories you have of your first visit to Disneyland as a little kid.

I think some of the threads have put their finger on the issue: this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. If we were talking about Conan 2e or True20 or Mutants and Masterminds, then I don't think people would really be as bothered either way. But, this is the game that many of us grew up playing. for most of us, this was our first rpg. This is also THE rpg in pop culture. Most people don't know anything about roleplaying games, but they know DnD. So, when we see DnD go through some changes it becomes much more personal because we have much more invested in it.

Like you said, this is personal. So how much of the objection is personal? How much of it is "This hurts my feelings"?

How much of that objections is merely objection to change, any change? Mere traditionalism, regardless of the content of the new direction?

And, like you said, it's personal. Those who like the current direction take it personal when they see accusations that D&D has been taken in the wrong direction. It's seen as being told "What you like is wrong, and we don't think you should play D&D that way".

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

How many times have you been on the forums of a MMORPG and seen people threatening class action lawsuits because some class got nerfed or a notoriety system was put into place for player killers?

Never. I've never seen or heard of anything even remotely like this. It's not even particularly plausible. You might want to rethink your comparison here.

 

[Rechan]

There's an additional wrinkle to the matter.

On these boards, I have seen people give a reason for why they complain (sometimes very loudly) against some things that appear in the books/in the designs: they want WotC to be aware of their objection. Case in point: the Golden Wyvern Adept business. People saw something they did not like, and raised hell about it. WotC ended up not putting the Golden Wyvern Adept stuff in the core books. The objecters rejoice, claiming it is victory. Same with the decision to advance Eberron's timeline two years - the internet fans loudly objected, the designers chose to not update the timeline.

That is a two-sided coin. If someone likes the direction, or the content, then defending it would show that there is support for that decision. Countering the complaints with compliments helps those who like it try to get that decision to stay put.