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The Impasse

I have no problem with what you are talking about. What I have a problem with is when it happened to me to express my opinion on 4e by saying that it is not a roleplaying game but rather a board game -in the kinds of "descent" or "warhammer quest" or what have you- I felt by the reactions as I was committing heresy or something. I have played those games with friends in the past extensively and they were fun. After some time I(we) got bored of them but till that moment we were having a blast.

Well, here I gotta disagree with you, buddy. I definitely feel 4E is a roleplaying game.

Still, though, if you feel 4E is a great board game, then you should probably pick up Dungeon Delve, since I hear it's basically more of what you've enjoyed out of 4E. And no, WotC isn't paying me. :p
 

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I am not sure how to express this, but this attitude is problematic, because you seem to assume that just because there is an influence, it will change the entire experience to something like an MMO or tactical miniature game. But that doesn't follow.
Well I think it may follow based on implementation. See my post right above here. ;)
Do you have a problem with hit points in D&D? Hit points can also be found in MMO and CRPGs (and probably tactical mini games, though I am not familiar with tem). But apparantly that didn't lead to you liking those games more, right? So why do you assume that the opposite is automatically true? A mechanic found in an MMO automatically makes the role-playing game experience worse?
Again it depends on implementation. The same feature in different structures is not the same thing -in terms of comparability. You are right that it is wrong to assume that an inclusion of a feature makes something automatically in a certain way.

The trick is lifting mechanics and concepts in a way that makes sense for the type of game you're working on.
I am not sure about that. Remember the analogy about trying to adapt movie features to a novel written for a book? This trick may be very tricky in the sense of altering the sense of the game you are working on and so you will have to readapt the whole game structure for the specific type you are aiming for. But as I said above I am not sure any more about what type of game the designers really wanted. You helped me think about this -I was in a defensive anti-mode regarding the type that I wanted and ended about accusing the ability of the designers here.
 
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I am not sure how to express this, but this attitude is problematic, because you seem to assume that just because there is an influence, it will change the entire experience to something like an MMO or tactical miniature game. But that doesn't follow.

Do you have a problem with hit points in D&D? Hit points can also be found in MMO and CRPGs (and probably tactical mini games, though I am not familiar with tem). But apparantly that didn't lead to you liking those games more, right? So why do you assume that the opposite is automatically true? A mechanic found in an MMO automatically makes the role-playing game experience worse?

Well, when I first encountered Everquest I saw a lot of similarities to D&D, and my attitude was very positive. Then I saw what the positive D&D experience I had ended up like in EQ - a tedious grind with enforced grouping, and repetitive combat that felt very much like an exercise in optimisation of a given set of mechanics without any thought to realism, immersion or roleplaying. Most new powers and spells one got were just "more of the same", without adding anything new and original. Generic flame, ice and electricity spells alternated every 4 levels as the "most effective" for example. The main attraction of roleplayed combat for me - creative fighting, stunts, and tactics - was reduced to a set-piece battle each time, where math was king (manage aggro, nuke every X seconds, hit hate reducer every y seconds, complete heal all z seconds, etc.) and risk was all but removed by player choices.

There are very few mechanics in MMOGs that enhance roleplay, in my opinion. And those that do are not found in the combat system. When I hear about "striker, tank, dps, controller", I see PvE MMOGs. And trying to compete with them in that aspect is futile - MMOGs do "grid" combat much better than pen and paper can, since it's faster, and graphically more pleasing.

Where pen and paper can shine is with creative things you cannot do in an MMOG. Throwing a cloak over the enemies eyes. Dropping a chandelier on enemies. Making a wall crumble, hack down a door and use it as a battering ram. Using and changing the enviroment, the entire battlefield.

In my opinion, the game should have moved away from all the detailed and limited powers, instead concentrating on the "stunts" aspect, capitalizing on the enormous flexibility and options a human DM has, instead of a computer in an MMOG.

Instead we got the MMOG mechanics, without the graphics. If I just want to battle a dozen goblins yardtrash mobs with my powers, then kill goblin leaders for loot with my special moves before raiding the goblin king for items, I'd log on to an MMOG.

If I play a pen and paper game, I want to focus on stuff I can't in an MMOG. Redirect a river and drown the goblin keep. Make an alliance with the orc tribe against them. Parlay and intimidate them into attacking the ogres. Poison their wells. Kill their champion in single combat and make them my followers. If I do combat, it'll have to do better than MMOG combat - and duplicating their - very balanced and sound - mechanics won't help me there.
 

Well, here I gotta disagree with you, buddy. I definitely feel 4E is a roleplaying game.
Yes but I tried to explain this here, to elaborate on what a roleplaying game means and draw comparisons and judgment on the matter. I would prefer if you disagree that you showed me where you disagree with my points. But even if you do not, there is no problem really.
If it feels like this to you, then till something that feels better is actually presented (a new edition, a new game maybe) what it the point to argue about in the end, aint I right?;)
 

If say today you say "system mastery is bad, so WotC is right, I know that", and tomorrow WotC changes their view and you say "System mastery is good, so WotC is right" then you're a blind defender.
Classic example of a post hoc fallacy. Say it with me, "correlation does not prove causation".


glass.
 

This stuff can be discussed, analyzed, and applied to every game in existence, but when it comes to D&D, it's like its quietly regarded as taboo, or something to tout out in a negative manner.

Here is where the problematic lies. How application is implemented it can change the type of nature of games -if not the game itself. The D&D in the past could seem more of a toolbox and the DM applied common sense to direct the game to his taste. But game design is something more tricky. Do not fall in the old school mindset, having that POV and trying to judge game design considering this common sense applicability as a standard.
 


Maybe it should be changed to D.P.R. - damage per round?

And to be fair, the dreaded character optimization boards were full of people focused on optimizing the D.P.R. output in the height of 3.x, so that's not a 4E construct at all.
 

Maybe it should be changed to D.P.R. - damage per round?

And to be fair, the dreaded character optimization boards were full of people focused on optimizing the D.P.R. output in the height of 3.x, so that's not a 4E construct at all.
Indeed. But changing DPS to DPR may only be one letter, but it signified a vast difference in how the game feels in play. The only way to make D&D 4e an MMO would be to actually make it an MMO. They didn't; they made it a P&P RPG with character sheets and dice, just like it has always been.

EDIT: Not arguing with you Sammael, just building on the point.


glass.
 

I am not sure this is the case. A MMO can just as easily be turn-based as it is real-time; the only reason why most (not all) MMOs are real-time is the convenience of faster play.

In other words, I don't think turn-based and real-time combat is what distinguishes a pen-and-paper RPG and a CRPG.
 

Into the Woods

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