The Magic-Walmart myth

[Shadeydm]

So, if I understand correctly, you're saying that it is perfectly acceptable to use a term you know the listener will consider derogatory so long as you don't consider it to be so.

Good luck with that.

Where you are missing the boat here because really anything anyone says can be offensive to someone so you really pulling a strawman there. The bottom line is you are suppose to consider context not just jump to conclusions. I could easily say that I find your earlier dismissal of cartoons as childish anime insulting but I understand why you said it in the context of the post and the thread. I too dislike the "pokemount" it is an aspect of the edition which amounts to little more than designer handwaving that I find to be lazy and unimaginative. Just like I find the notion that because city X has a population of Y means that I can buy a Holy Avenger there. Never in my campaign...ever.

 

[Blue]

Just to give a real-life example, one game I play in is in the FR, and if we're in a big city for a long period (several weeks or more) of time we can basically find or commission anything we're looking for.

If we're there for a short time or it's a small place, it's a different story.

The Realms is supposed to be high magic (take Calimishan, with lots of magical "luxuries"). A very active large community in most places (take Amn and Cormyr) mean that both there are people who cater to it for huge profit plus the adventurers themselves flooding the market with loot they aren't interested in.

Think general stores during the American gold rush that charged orders of magnitude more. Compare the returns for a week of making magic items vs. a week of profession or craft skill. Item crafting is much more lucrative. And if an item crafter has gotten up to the minimum caster level where they can take the feats (say, 5th for craft wondrous), then they know how to get XP. So helping the militia clear out a wild boar or such is a piddling amount of XP for a 5th level character - but since each XP works out to be 12.5gp in profit in a world where that's a lot of money to non-adventurers, well... let's just say that if the economy provides a demand for magic items, selling a supply of them is a very quick and relatively painless way toward becoming well off.

As a real life example of a low-magic game, the game I run is lower then standard wealth. Potions can be found many places, especially temples like to have someone who can make cures because they always bring in big donations and there is a steady demand, plus alchemists who also make other items (acid, alch. fire, etc). Scroll shops are rare but finding someone to make one isn't hard since every 1st level wizard gets the feat. Above that you're really using gather information checks to either track down a small random list of what's in the market and/or what people have and isn't for sale but might be for the right price, or different gather information checks to find some you can commission an item from with the appropriate feat and then wait for it to be done.

High magic exists, and "magic wal-marts" may not be literally what happens, but is basically the concept that if a place can sell items that size, it includes magic items. It's not that there is a single store, but more that it's a commodity that can be purchased.

Good luck,
=Blue(23)

 

[Hussar]

Where you are missing the boat here because really anything anyone says can be offensive to someone so you really pulling a strawman there. The bottom line is you are suppose to consider context not just jump to conclusions. I could easily say that I find your earlier dismissal of cartoons as childish anime insulting but I understand why you said it in the context of the post and the thread. I too dislike the "pokemount" it is an aspect of the edition which amounts to little more than designer handwaving that I find to be lazy and unimaginative. Just like I find the notion that because city X has a population of Y means that I can buy a Holy Avenger there. Never in my campaign...ever.

Hrm, speaking of straw men. Holy Avenger 120, 630 gp. Maximum gp limit for ANY city is 100k gp. So, yeah, you're right, you can't find a Holy Avenger on the shelf of any city by RAW. Yet, people feel the need to specifically state this like they are somehow departing from RAW, as if the RAW would allow this behavior in the first place. Just like stating "No Magic WalMarts" as if magic walmarts were somehow the standard dictated by RAW.

As far as dismissing the paladin's mount, I go the other way. I think of the paladin's mount as tangible proof of the divine in the paladin. Not only is this holy warrior a warrior of a god, but his god actually sends a servant down from the heavens to carry him into the battle. I remember a very old cartoon called Hercules where Hercules would open the front of his magic belt and flash a signal to Mount Olympus. That would cause the Pegasus to descend from the heavens to carry Hercules into battle with whatever monster the evil Daedelus had brought up.

To me, that's the flavour of the 3.5 paladin's mount. Comparing it to a small yellow ratlike creature that shoots lightning bolts and lives in a ball, with no connection whatsover to the divine, seems very dismissive and unimaginative to me. But, that's the point. People are using pokemount specifically to get a reaction. It's effectively Godwinning the discussion, since it closes down any meaningful discourse.

Given the years of editions wars, is it really surprising that I would see something like "Magic Walmart" with all its negative connotations as yet another cheap edition shot? It's a vague term that doesn't actually fit with the RAW at all and only serves to take wrongbadfun shots at how other people game.

You don't have magic shops? Great! No worries. But, the idea of centralized magic shops isn't part of RAW, nor is it assumed in most published settings (with notable exceptions). Comparing the Byzantine politics of the Houses in Eberron to Walmart is not constructive. It's reductive and frankly, wrong.

 

[Shadeydm]

See there you go with you don't have magic shops where exactly have I posted that I don't have magic shops? I simply don't allow players to flip open the DMG point and click and bingo they have bought one. You want to buy a +2 Greatsword sure you might be able to find one or you could definetly commision one and come back in a few weeks when its done. You want to have someone add keen to it at some point fine also. If you are willing to be without it several different occasion for long enough periods of time then with enough money it might eventually be a +2 Keen Shocking Burst Greatsword of Wounding. But you won't ever be able to walk into a store and buy a +2 Keen Shocking Burst Greatsword of Wounding IMC. If someone else is comfortable with selling items like those off the shelf more power to them.
As far as your 100,000gp comment is concerned.
If you want to sell a Robe of the Archmagi off the shelves more power to you after all its only 75,000gp so a big enough city and your good to go according to the rules. To me a Robe of the Archmagi is way too rare and special an item to be able to pick one up at Jim's Curious Goods on the corner Cheap Street and Weaksauce Avenue in Waterdeep.

 

[Raven Crowking]

For clarity, if I use the term "pokemount" it is to imply the 3.5 paladin's mount sucks, not the whole game itself.

Exactly. And my belief that the 3.5 paladin's mount sucks does not equate to a belief that those who think differently must also suck. It is only if you believe that one must enjoy or not enjoy equally all parts of the whole where a compaint about such a minor part of the rule system becomes a complaint about the rule system itself.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

People are using pokemount specifically to get a reaction. It's effectively Godwinning the discussion, since it closes down any meaningful discourse.

Please tell me by what rational means you determine how the use of the term "pokemount" closes doen any meaningful discourse. I've never noticed that effect. I've seen terms like anime, Tolkienesque, MagicMart, and pokemount on thread after thread, and I've never seen them close down meaningful discourse.

Given the years of editions wars, is it really surprising that I would see something like "Magic Walmart" with all its negative connotations as yet another cheap edition shot?

I believe that the term comes originally from discussions of 2e, and something similar appears in the DM's Option: High Level Handbook. I know I've brought this up before. I know several examples have been brought up before that are specifically 2e examples (such as the Arcane in Spelljammer, and Planescape). How does one thereby conclude that this topic relates to 3.X specifically? AFAIK, MagicMarts, Magic Shops, and Magic Artisans are issues that have been around longer than 1e.

 

[Slife]

As far as your 100,000gp comment is concerned.
If you want to sell a Robe of the Archmagi off the shelves more power to you after all its only 75,000gp so a big enough city and your good to go according to the rules. To me a Robe of the Archmagi is way too rare and special an item to be able to pick one up at Jim's Curious Goods on the corner Cheap Street and Weaksauce Avenue in Waterdeep.

Think of the Robe of the Archmagi as something like one of Babe Ruth's jerseys, or Elvis' jumpsuit. Sure, in a really big city you can find someone who can buy it for you, but it isn't just off the shelf.

 

[Shadeydm]

Think of the Robe of the Archmagi as something like one of Babe Ruth's jerseys, or Elvis' jumpsuit. Sure, in a really big city you can find someone who can buy it for you, but it isn't just off the shelf.

I would be happy to think of it that way if the Babe's jersey allowed me to play like him lol.

 

[IceFractal]

First off, I notice that most people against "Magic-Item Marts" seem to be assuming that it's unreasonable to buy things for the base price, as if that were the warehouse price, or the MSRP. IMO, that's the average price - sometimes the item is hard to get and you pay more than that, sometimes you can find it easily and you pay less. Even if Wizards usually overcharge people, the price listed in the book has that overcharge factored in.


Secondly, buying a Robe of the Archmagi in Waterdeep. That makes perfect sense. No, it's not sitting on a shelf in a store, but think about it: Most likely, a powerful Wizard owns that robe. Now where would such a Wizard live? Quite possibly, in the largest and most magically powerful city around. Would that Wizard be willing to sell it? Well, it's entirely possible - Wizards are always experimenting with new things - the key to immortality, for instance. Things like that tend to be expensive to research. If selling a robe he doesn't use much anymore since retiring can help him reach immortality, why not do it?


Third - the creation costs are not necessarily universal. Those are for people who want to learn a little crafting lore while still pursuing other goals (like adventuring). So they learn a highly inefficient but simple method of enchantment. Meanwhile, people willing to devote their lives to the craft might well be crafting items with much less.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

p137, Community Wealth and Populations:
"Anything having a price under that limit [GP Limit] is most likely available, wheter it be mundane or magical."

Hmm.. "...most likely available..."

In other words not neccessarily available...

So the Robe of the Archmagi, while fitting the community wealth GP limit would technically be avalable.. it probably is not due to its unigue and rare nature.

So 'no magic marts'... so called to specify the difference between a one-stop shop retail outlet with items sitting on shelves from a 'magic store' run by an eccentric mage who may be willing to craft items on request... is RAW.

Cool.

Regarding offensive terminology...check my sig. Remember that it is not just the posters responsiblity to attempt to be clear and precise in his/her language.. but the reader should also pay attention to context and resist the urge to apply your own opinon filter to someone else's words.


After all, 'magic mart' is facially less offensive than 'childish anime'