The Magical Gear of a 10th level PC

[Minigiant]

I think one of the thing we must discuss is the equipment of an very adventurer. It is a major aspect of the game and leaks into other aspects of the game: item crafting, caster/noncaster balance, item availablity, costs, and necessity. Whether you believe in "Christmas Tree" characters, just a guy with only a magic sword, or a "3 slots matter" approach of 4E dealt changes how the game has to be designed.

So here are the Qs. Assuming a stereotypical game....

At what level should the game expect every PC of the party to firat have a magic item?

Should the core PCs gain magical items at a certain rate?

If so what should the rate be about? 1 per level? 1 per level after level 5. 1 per 3 levels?

How many magic items should you expect to see on the average 10th level PC provided they do not donate a large chunk of it?

Should every PC eventually get a magic weapon? Magic armor?

Dragons fly. Should every PC who can't cast fly be expected to get a magic bow or flight item?

Should every PC, if they level high enough, get a named unique item?

 

[Blackwarder]

There is a very serious problem with the OP, the first question should be wether the base system should anticipate some sort of magic items for the PCs? And the answer should be a resounding NO!!!1!1

What it should have is a solid advice for high magic play and low magic play in DMG with the base game looking at magic items as. Rewards and not somthing to be expected so the math of the game should not expect PCs to have certain magic items in certain levels.

Warder

 

[FireLance]

I think what the game should assume and what I want can be two entirely different things.

Ideally, the game should assume nothing. It should be able to tell you how to balance your game (if you are concerned about game balance) whether you want a game with few or no magic items, or one in which each PC is expected to gain a new magic item per level.

What I want in my games, however, is for each PC to get one permanent magic item or an upgrade to an existing item per level, since that's how I played it in 4e. So, each PC should find or be given one magic item before he reaches 2nd level. By 10th level, a PC would have nine or so magic items, but after including upgrades and/or replacements, he might actually be using five or six.

The question about magic items and dragons is campaign-dependent. In a more structured campaign, the DM should require the PCs to fight a dragon if they are not equipped to do so. In a more sandbox campaign, PCs who are not equipped to fight dragons should try to avoid fighting them.

 

[Kinak]

Ideally, I'd like the game built assuming no magical items.

Then include, in the DMG, some discussion of how magical items balance (or unbalance) your game. If you don't give out items, the PCs will be balanced for their level. If you give out a lot of magical items, the PCs will be stronger than expected.

But is that such a bad thing? Providing a simple dial like that to the GM seems like a great tool. Some people want more powerful games and that's a great way to give it to them.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Minigiant]

[MENTION=6688285]Blackwarder[/MENTION] & [MENTION=6694112]Kinak[/MENTION]. So you both are saying D&D should be written as no magical items as default?

[MENTION=3424]FireLance[/MENTION]. I think you are missing my point. I am not asking howmany magic items your game gives a PC. I am asking. "If the DM uses the default guidelines of the DMG and runs a party up to the 10th level using few customized monsters, traps, and hazards; how many magic items should you expect to see on the character sheet? 0? 1? 3? 5? 10? 20?

Mundane weapon and armor?
Flametongue and regular armor?
Lifedrinker sword, demonic armor, cloak of resistance, 2 potions of healing?
+2 Icy axe, lion's shield, dwarven armor, slayer bow, ¼ a quiver of demonbane arrows, winged boots, cloak of charisma, hat of disguise, crystal ball, and 4 potions of cure light wounds?

 

[Hautamaki]

I hand out tons of magic items in my game because they are a great mini-reward but most of them aren't that strong; just little things like potions and scrolls, or charms that might boost a single saving throw or skill check, things of that nature. In terms of actual powerful and expensive magic items my 5th level party of adventurers has 3 or 4 things like that each. It makes them much more powerful than a low-magic 5th level party but that's fine, they aren't exactly the most cunning group you've ever seen so they need the help.

 

[Kinak]

@Blackwarder & @Kinak . So you both are saying D&D should be written as no magical items as default?

Well, balanced without them. It's an easy baseline that there can't be any confusion about.

I'd also, personally, much rather screw up by making my PCs hit too often than them not hit often enough. Miss-miss-miss is bad enough without risking I'm not giving out enough (or the right kind) of magical items.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Neonchameleon]

There is a very serious problem with the OP, the first question should be wether the base system should anticipate some sort of magic items for the PCs? And the answer should be a resounding NO!!!1!1

What it should have is a solid advice for high magic play and low magic play in DMG with the base game looking at magic items as. Rewards and not somthing to be expected so the math of the game should not expect PCs to have certain magic items in certain levels.

Warder

If the answer is no then magic items must be trivial and do almost nothing - or you must give up any pretense at producing modules for >1st level PCs.

This is because Iron Man can beat up Tony Stark. If you want challenging adventures and items are worth anything other than being shiny, the power level of a party at the end of a Monty Haul adventure is going to be extremely different to one with a seriously mean DM. A level 6 fighter with a +5 Vorpal Greatsword, Boots of Flying, +5 Plate Armour of Fortification, a ring of invisibility, a ring of regeneration, etc. is going to be more powerful than a level 8 fighter with a rusty greatsword and who has barely scraped together enough money for plate armour (who himself is more powerful than a level 10 fighter in his skivvies with a greatclub).

Also you're in a bind. The math of the game has to expect something. So if it doesn't expect the PCs to have magic items, it has to expec them to have no magic items. Not only is this extremely unlikely, it doesn't actually add anything to the game and actively takes away DM information.

 

[the Jester]

Assuming a stereotypical game....

At what level should the game expect every PC of the party to firat have a magic item?

Never. The game should be written with a "never have magic items" assumption so that they remain special rather than required gear.

Should the core PCs gain magical items at a certain rate?

If so what should the rate be about? 1 per level? 1 per level after level 5. 1 per 3 levels?

No, and never.

How many magic items should you expect to see on the average 10th level PC provided they do not donate a large chunk of it?

You should "expect" none, but most 10th level pcs should have five or six.

Should every PC eventually get a magic weapon? Magic armor?

No.

Dragons fly. Should every PC who can't cast fly be expected to get a magic bow or flight item?

PCs who fight flying monsters without ranged attacks or flight themselves are idiots. It shouldn't be "expected" that they will have them, the party ought to make an effort to be ranged-capable- but this has little to do with magic items. Why a magic bow vs. just a party armed with bows and crossbows?

Should every PC, if they level high enough, get a named unique item?

No. Nothing applies to every pc, and every campaign is different.

 

[Minigiant]

You should "expect" none, but most 10th level pcs should have five or six.

PCs who fight flying monsters without ranged attacks or flight themselves are idiots. It shouldn't be "expected" that they will have them, the party ought to make an effort to be ranged-capable- but this has little to do with magic items. Why a magic bow vs. just a party armed with bows and crossbows?

I'm getting a certain vibe with the responses.

Either people don't want magic items to be assumed on high level PC unless they are fighting 50-90% of the higher level threats.

Org

Magic items could not be factored AT ALL. If the higher level PCs should be able to fight dragons, lodges, vapors, and pit fiends in mundane armor, regular weapons, and 1st level spells in 5th level spell slots.