The Multiclass Question

[Tequila Sunrise]

1) Should a character be allowed to pick a new class at any time or should there be a cost/limit (e.g. minimum ability scores, some kind of opportunity cost such as a feat or skill points, experience point cost)?

2) Should humans (and half-elves) be better at multiclassing than characters of other races?

3) Should multiclass characters be weaker, stronger, or equivalent in power with their single-class brethren?

Though it would probably be taken as heavy handed by your players, a DM could flat out say 'no more than x classes and/or prestiges'. I've considered this, though never implemented it due to the aforementioned probability.

Yes, hummins and half hummins should be better multiclassers, but only marginally. I've considered ruling that any second class which a character takes, unless it be a favored class, applies the 20% XP penalty regardless of a character 'building their levels evenly'. I've often thought that the game designers underestimated the mathematical and logistical planning that so many players will do in order to build levels evenly in order to get the uber-build that they want without that 20% penalty.

Overall I think the best way to deal with multiclassing is thru DM judgement; generally a character shouldn't be allowed to pick up a new class just because it suits them. My only exception to this guideline is sorcerers and favored souls, for obvious reasons. All other classes I consider to be 'trained' classes, even rogues, bards, barbs and the like. I don't have a problem with a character who 'looks over another's shoulder' in order to pick up a new class (I forget where those words are used in PHB); I know it's not entirely realistic but I rationalize it by figuring that being in life-and-death situations regularly is a great motivator to learn new skills.

 

[Exen Trik]

Here's a thought: treat joining a new core class just like joining a prestige class. That is, give them requirements reflecting the training that goes into the class, and make it more costly for classes who would gain the most out of them. Here's my attempt at it:


Barbarian: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Toughness, Intimidation 4+, Survival 4+, Any non-lawful alignment.
-Barbarians are about being strong and tough, which these requirements reflect. Classes without Good fortitude saves or appropriate skills will have more trouble adapting to this way of life. You can require the PC live with a tribe or have some other cultural involvement, but it doesn't seem necessary as a rule.

Bard: Skill Focus (Perform), Perform 4+ ranks, Ranks +1 of any 4 knowledge skills, Ranks +1 of any other four bard class skills, besides craft or profession, Any non-lawful alignment
-The magic of music is open to those with great skill in it... and a bit of skill in lots of other things

Cleric: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion); Ranks 4+ of the following: Concentration, Heal (or domain related skill), Knowlege (Religion); Appropriate alignment
-Those faithful to their diety can learn to ask for their power, if they deem themselves worthy by dilligence and conduct.

Druid: Skill Focus (Knowledge Nature); Ranks 4+ of the following: Animal Handling, Concentration, Knowlege (Nature), Surival; Any Neutral Alignment, special
-Besides an understanding of nature, druids must also properly repect nature, and refrain from the use of metal armor.

Fighter: Martial Weapon Proficiency, any two feats from the fighter list
-Fighters need to be able to, well, fight. As long as they can use weapons, and put effort into their martial abilities, it should be open to anyone. Armor proficiencies from just being in a class shouldn't count towards the feat requirement.

Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike, Run, Balance 2+, Climb 2+, Jump 2+, Tumble 2+, Knowledge (Arcana and Religion) 2+, Any Lawful Alignment
-Monks train not only in unarmed combat, but also a wide range of skills. PCs of any class looking to join monk will need to invest in at least some cross class skills.

Paladin: Martial Weapon proficiency; Ranks +2 in the following skills: Heal, Knowledge (Nobility/Royalty and Religion) and Sense Motive; Lawful Good alignment, Follow the paladin's Code
-Paladins require training of their body and mind, but above all else are about dedication to the divine prupose set before them. In addition to the other requirements, a prospective paladin must abide by the paladins code unwaveringly.

Ranger: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Track, Endurance, Ranks 2+ in Handle Anima, Survival, Knowledge (dungeoneering geography and nature)
-Rangers can be lots of things, as long as it involves being an able warrior and skilled outdoorsman it should be good enough.

Rogue: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus in any one and 2+ ranks in any four rogue class skills, except for craft or profession skills.
-Rogues come in all types, the only thing they truely have in common is a great emphasis on skills. Classes that are natural skilled will have little trouble going rogue, as it were. An appropriate +2/+2 feat such as agile could replace the skill focus requirement.

Sorcerer: Magical Aptitude, Ranks 4+ of the following: Concentration, Knowlege (Arcana), Spellcraft.
-Discovering a talent for magic after following another path takes effort and study, unlike those who discovered it when younger.

Wizard: Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana); Ranks 4+ of the following: Decipher Script, Knowlege (Arcana), Spellcraft; the ability to read and write.
-Would be wizards need to spend much effort on the lore of magic before they can learn to manipulate it.


This doesn't do that much to limit the power of multiclassing, but it keeps the characters consistancy in check. I aimed for the requirements to be open to at least some characters at level 2, and open to anyone eventually, requiring feats the class would grant anyway or that reflects the extra effort invloved in training (perferably thematic and weak ), and some training in the iconic skills of the class. I used only feats from the PHB, other sources could have ones that are more appropriate. Expecialiy for the casters, feats that provide some limited spell ability or caster level would be perfect. Some kind of divine feat for paladins would be good too.

If you want to limit the power of multiclassing, you could also take out some of the immediate benefits, such as the +2 to good saves and/or the automatic proficiencies

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Really?! A straight 20th level Fighter?

I'll grant you that a 20th level Ranger, Barbarian or Paladin is fun, but a Fighter?

(This isn't an anti-single-class post, this is an anti-bad-baseline post.)

Cheers, -- N

This is why I said 'in an ideal campaign...' because I know that the majority of gamers feel like you feel.

Or maybe I'm just in the minority for valuing versatility (feats +++) over raw power (rage, smite evil), and this is the way it should be. However, I still feel that fighters, being the most populous soldiers/guards of the NPC world, should also be the most populous in the PC world. In this situation, I just don't buy the 'adventurers are what they are because they are DIFFERENT...' argument.

Sorry Airwalker, major tangent!

 

[airwalkrr]

For the benefit of Nifft and Primitive Screwhead (and any others who think I used a poor example), let's do the math on 4th level characters using the four classes I originally mentioned. This is all ability score independent and assumes average hp rolls. I recognize not all class features are created equal but let's assume for argument's sake they are at least roughly comparable in potential. The value in class features is listed in parentheses and the explanation for these values is given below the class features. I'm not saying it is a perfect measure, simply a rough basis for comparison.

Bbn4
-+4 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will (1)
-+4 BAB (2)
-31 hp (4)
-28 skill points (1)
-light and medium armor proficiency (2)
-shield proficiency (1)
-all simple and martial weapon proficiency (2)
-fast movement (1)
-rage 2/day (2)
-uncanny dodge (1)
-trap sense +1 (1)

Total Class Features: 18.

Good Fort is worth one. Good BAB is two improvements over poor BAB. A d12 hit die is four improvements over d4 hit die. 4 skill points per level is one improvement over 2 skill points per level. Light and medium armor prof. are two feats. Shield prof. is one feat. Simple and martial prof. are two improvements over the least weapon heavy class, the wizard. Rage counts twice because you get it twice per day.

Ftr4
-+4 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will (1)
-+4 BAB (2)
-26 hp (3)
-14 skill points (0)
-light, medium, and heavy armor proficiency (3)
-shield proficiency (1)
-tower shield proficiency (1)
-all simple and martial weapon proficiency (2)
-3 bonus feats (3)

Total Class Features: 16.

Good Fort is worth one. Good BAB is two improvements over poor BAB. A d10 hit die is three improvements over d4 hit die. 2 skill points per level is the minimum so no credit. Light, medium, and heavy armor prof. are three feats. Shield prof. is one feat. Tower shield prof. is one feat. Simple and martial prof. are two improvements over the least weapon heavy class, the wizard. 3 bonus feats counts three times.

Rgr4
-+4 Fort, +4 Ref, +1 Will (2)
-+4 BAB (2)
-21 hp (2)
-42 skill points (2)
-light armor proficiency (1)
-shield proficiency (1)
-all simple and martial weapon proficiency (2)
-Track (1)
-favored enemy (1)
-animal empathy (1)
-combat style feat (1)
-endurance (1)
-animal companion (1)
-spellcasting potential (1)

Total Class Features: 19.

Good Fort and Ref is worth two. Good BAB is two improvements over poor BAB. A d8 hit die is two improvements over d4 hit die. 6 skill points per level is two improvements over 2 skill points per level. Light armor prof. is one feat. Simple and martial prof. is two improvements over the least weapon heavy class, the wizard.

Rog4
-+1 Fort, +4 Ref, +1 Will (1)
-+3 BAB (1)
-16 hp (1)
-56 skill points (3)
-light armor proficiency (1)
-rogue weapon proficiency (1)
-trapfinding (1)
-sneak attack +2d6 (2)
-evasion (1)
-trap sense +1 (1)
-uncanndy dodge (1)

Total Class Features: 14.

Good Ref is worth one. Average BAB is one improvements over poor BAB. A d6 hit die is one improvements over d4 hit die. 8 skill points per level is three improvements over 2 skill points per level. Light armor prof. is one feats. Rogue weapon prof. is one improvement over the least weapon heavy class, the wizard. Sneak attack counts twice, once for each die gained.

Bbn1/Ftr1/Rgr1/Rog1
-+6 Fort, +4 Ref, +0 Will (3)
-+3 BAB (1)
-25 hp/24 hp/23 hp/22 hp (3/3/2/2)
-32 skill points/26 skill points/38 skill points/44 skill points (1/1/2/2)
-light, medium, and heavy armor proficiency (3)
-shield proficiency (1)
-tower shield proficiency (1)
-all simple and martial weapon proficiency (2)
-rogue weapon proficiency (0)
-fast movement (1)
-rage 1/day (1)
-bonus feat (1)
-favored enemy (1)
-Track (1)
-animal empathy (1)
-trapfinding (1)
-sneak attack +1d6 (1)

Total Class Features: 23.

Now as I said, this is not exact. I am not saying the above character is 23/14 (or 1.64) times better than the rogue. Some class features like animal empathy and tower shield proficiency will rarely, if ever, come into play, though they can be very useful under the right circumstances (such as a wilderness heavy campaign or a character built around taking advantage of cover). And arguably trapfinding gives you no benefit if you have no ranks in Search, but I have met players of rogues who did not multiclass and still did not invest in Search so the class ability can be useless to single classed characters too. But even if we do not count these class features for the multiclass characters (and do not count the relevant ones for their base classes as well), then the multiclass character still has more options than all others, and far more options than most.

Now we obviously aren't trying to compare the potential of a character to a power-gamer; power-gamers can break any class with the right feat/skill/item selection. We are trying to compare these classes based on their own inherent merits. In order to make the argument that multiclass characters such as the one above are equal in inherent merits, you must argue that the abilities gained by the multiclass character are far inferior because they only have one level in that class. Unfortunately, there is hardly an argument for most cases. Rage is almost universally useful for such a character, as is sneak attack as he will likely have the mobility to into flanking positions often enough. Finally, the only class that is even close to the multiclass character in number of abilities is the ranger, who has arguably some of the weakest class features. Some features, like Track, animal empathy, favored enemy, and Endurance might never be used in the campaign depending on the DM (the DM never has investigations, never uses animals, never lets you fight your favored enemy, or never worries about Con checks to avoid fatigue and such things, all fairly common occurences). But if you don't count these for the ranger or multiclassed character, then the multiclass character still has more options and abilities than the other classes. Multiclass characters are simply better.

 

[airwalkrr]

2> Using a single prestige class (Mystic Theurge) as justification as to why spellcaster multiclassing isn't broken? Pretty weak. But there's been a lot of discussion on this one in other threads.

Not only is that unfair, it's an erroneous representation of what I said. I used two prestige classes as examples, and I incorporated the practiced spellcaster feat as an additional example of ways multiclass spellcasters have been made more playable. They are still on the weak end of things, but with these things (and others, I am not going to list every single example; I think two prestige classes and one feat is enough for a simple example), I think there is sufficient evidence that multiclass spellcasters are at least viable and no longer ridiculously underpowered.

On the other hand, there are campaigns out there that don't use PrCs, or heavily limit them by DM fiat. If you were actually forced to take the above combo to level 20, it'd be much weaker than a single-class character. And that's not even considering Epic rules.

This is unrelated to my concern. My concern is that the core rules for multiclassing are problematic. The very fact that DMs heavily limit and restrict other base classes and prestige classes is evidence of the multiclassing problem.

4> The only reason the massive multiclasser doesn't get shafted on saves is the base +2 for a "good" save. If you use the following house rule, that goes away:

Your value for each save is (+1/2 per "good" save class level) + (+1/3 per "poor" save class level) + (2 if at least one of your classes has it as a "good" save), rounded down. (That is, the +2 only counts once, but you keep all fractions).
Likewise, we keep fractions with BAB. Each class is either +1, +3/4, or +1/2.
These apply to PrCs, as well.

So with the purpose of this thread in mind (to discuss elements of a balanced multiclassing system), you therefore propose that saving throws need to be more balanced. I will make sure that is in the poll for the next thread. Thank you.

 

[airwalkrr]

Thus far I have gathered the following possibilities for poll options. Remember the poll I intend to run will include a list of features that people believe are necessary for a balanced multiclass system. I have given credit where credit is due. Note I am not claiming the individual believes this should be the case, merely that the individual noted doing it him/herself or that it was an idea to consider.

-Intermediary (or hybrid) classes are required for characters to change their style (CO Nel).
-Humans and half-elves should have a generic advantage but not a specific advantage when it comes to multiclassing (CO Nel; btw I'm not entirely sure what you meant by this, perhaps you could elaborate).
-Class levels should be balanced both within a class and from one class to another (CO Nel).
-Multiclassing should require roleplaying significance (CO Vrecknidj).
-Multiclassing should be equivalent in power to single class characters (CO Vrecknidj).
-Each class should have a specific mechanical requirement for multiclassing. Some may be more lenient than others (CO Machiavelli). Or simple treat classes as prestige classes with entry requirements (CO Thurbane for general idea and Exen Trik for specific examples).
-Characters that would take an XP penalty as per the current rules should be illegal (CO Machiavelli).
-A proclivity towards certain classes or certain kinds of multiclassing (such as favored classes) should be adjusted to fit the setting (CO Primitive Screwhead).
-Characters should not receive more skill points or HP for 1st level (CO Spatzimaus).
-Saving throws should not rapidly increase for multiclass characters (CO Spatzimaus).
-Any second class other than favored class should impose some kind of penalty, e.g. an XP penalty (CO Tequila Sunrise).
-Characters should not receive automatic saving throw bonuses or proficiencies when multiclassing (CO Exen Trik).

 

[Aus_Snow]

Here's a thought: treat joining a new core class just like joining a prestige class. That is, give them requirements reflecting the training that goes into the class, and make it more costly for classes who would gain the most out of them.

That's exactly what I've been doing for quite a while now. Makes sense, works. . . is good.

If you want to limit the power of multiclassing, you could also take out some of the immediate benefits, such as the +2 to good saves and/or the automatic proficiencies

And again. IOW, as above (re: the 'bump' for base saves, anyway). Great minds, eh?

 

[DarkKestral]

This is a bit from WoTC's designers, but an applicable one, overall.

Prestige classes should be on the lower-powered side numerically if they offer spellcasting increases, and higher-powered side if they don't, to get closer to optimum intra-party balance.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I completely agree that a multi-class character has more options.. my Calvary Scout {Cutter}, fx, carries and can weild: Bow, Greatsword, dual short swords, and lance. However a pure fighter build could weild the same types of weapons and will have a higher BAB to work from. Cutter can also track, altho at a level or two beneath what a full Ranger could. As long as he is either the fifth character or the DM is silly enough to throw low-ball CR encounters our way, he will look to be as powerful as any stright build. As soon as he has to take up the entire slack of one of the standard 4 slots or the DM tosses high-ball CR encounters.. that level or two loss of capability starts to hurt.

In some min/max cases a powergamer can develop a gestalt character based on multi-classing, however it still comes in like any other character... that means its good in the characters purview but has weaknesses in other areas. You can toss out the count of class features {which you already made the caveat that pure numbers don't tell the whole story} but my experience playing mostly multi-class characters has never resulted in a character that excells at more than one area. Works passably in a couple area, sure... usually only good enough for backing up the main, pure class character. I enjoy playing a support type character, and the current 3.x rules allow me to do so while flexing the RP aspects of the game.


I agree with Spatzimaus on cutting off the extra +2 base on good saves, but I don't do it in my game because I use E-Tools for character generation and don't want to bother recoding the entire program. This would be a good option to add to your poll

I like the idea of training requirements, altho the ones presented above by Exen Trik mostly have throw-away feat costs so it appears that to gain the 'jack of trades but master of none' you need to burn a resource to be less effective?

And, getting ahead of you
-Intermediary (or hybrid) classes are required for characters to change their style (CO Nel).
~Would require the ceation of said hybrid classes, providing more meat for min/maxers or simply adding an LA to the character with pointless levels..neither a good option

-Humans and half-elves should have a generic advantage but not a specific advantage when it comes to multiclassing (CO Nel; btw I'm not entirely sure what you meant by this, perhaps you could elaborate).
~I see this as reducing the cost of multiclassing, either reduction in the XP penalty or training time.. and depending on the campaign setting I would agree

-Class levels should be balanced both within a class and from one class to another (CO Nel).
~Really hard to do, altho the current Core works failry well as written.. would require an entire rewrite of all the classes or go to a D20 Modern approach of 4 classes and build out of class option trees.

-Multiclassing should require roleplaying significance (CO Vrecknidj).
~In the case of PrC, yes. The normal classes to me are packages of abilities and may have a different RP flavour than what you perceive it to be. All character choices should have a RP aspect anyway... even the selection of skills should be reflected in how the character interacts with the campaign.

-Multiclassing should be equivalent in power to single class characters (CO Vrecknidj).
~Ideally and theorectically, yes. In reality so much depends on the DM's focus. As mentioned upthread having Trapsense is only valuable if the party encounters traps

-Each class should have a specific mechanical requirement for multiclassing. Some may be more lenient than others (CO Machiavelli). Or simple treat classes as prestige classes with entry requirements (CO Thurbane for general idea and Exen Trik for specific examples).
~Covered this up-post

-Characters that would take an XP penalty as per the current rules should be illegal (CO Machiavelli).
~Interesting, and may not affect much as many min/max do this anyway. Perhaps a flat 5% XP penatly per non-PrC that cannot be avoided by intentional leveling? Leaving the left over 15% be avoidable...

-A proclivity towards certain classes or certain kinds of multiclassing (such as favored classes) should be adjusted to fit the setting (CO Primitive Screwhead).
~Yahoo, I like this one {sorry...just had to}

-Characters should not receive more skill points or HP for 1st level (CO Spatzimaus).
~An interesting thought is changing the 1st level boost to be a spread across the first 3 levels..I forget what thread I found that one..

-Saving throws should not rapidly increase for multiclass characters (CO Spatzimaus).
~Using the fractional progression... requires changing any char-gen program and some math.. but doable

-Any second class other than favored class should impose some kind of penalty, e.g. an XP penalty (CO Tequila Sunrise).
~Oops, mentiong that up a couple poll items

-Characters should not receive automatic saving throw bonuses or proficiencies when multiclassing (CO Exen Trik).
~Saving throw, yes. profiencies... no. This would be weird to work into char-gen.

 

[Nifft]

For the benefit of Nifft and Primitive Screwhead (and any others who think I used a poor example), let's do the math on 4th level characters using the four classes I originally mentioned. This is all ability score independent and assumes average hp rolls. I recognize not all class features are created equal but let's assume for argument's sake they are at least roughly comparable in potential.

O RLY!?!

Here, I will create the ULTIMATE POWER:

Wiz 1 / Drd 1 / Clr 1 / Brd 1

+ Awesome saves!!!
+ FOUR kinds of spellcasting!!! (each one counts as a class feature, right?)
+ Better hit points than a Wizard!
+ Bard song!
+ Bard and Druid skill points!
+ Animal Companion!
+ Turn Undead!
+ Familiar!
+ Wild Empathy!
+ A Domain!
+ Another Domain!
+ A free Feat (Scribe Scroll)!
+ A free spellbook with a bunch of spells in it!

Now, who exactly is going to stand up and tell me THIS guy is overpowered?

Thanks, -- N