The Multiclass Question

[Exen Trik]

I like the idea of training requirements, altho the ones presented above by Exen Trik mostly have throw-away feat costs so it appears that to gain the 'jack of trades but master of none' you need to burn a resource to be less effective?

Well, it's not that I wanted to only use throw away feats, but there is very little in the phb that was appropriate for the classes. Skill focus feats for the casters are a good example, I would rather use something slightly little more useful, like toughness and run are.

I'm sure theres better feats that could be found or made for them. Or you could just eliminate most of the feat requirements and use skills. Depends if you want the requirements to tone down multiclassing, or only reflect training to take up a new path.

Remember, it was just a rough draft anyway.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Now, who exactly is going to stand up and tell me THIS guy is overpowered?

OVERPOWERED!!! OMGWTFLOLBBQ!!1!one!!1!

Actually, it's not quite as terrible as you make out, because some of that's actually a nice baseline for a melee character. Bear with me, here. One level of Cleric can be really handy, if only for the domain granted powers (Luck, for instance?) and the heavy armor proficiency. A level of Bard is pretty handy, too; decent skills, a 1/day group-helping bard song, that sort of thing. And assuming you keep the armor light for the Bard, the Druid and Wizard don't hurt either.

I suppose you could actually use Mystic Theurge on that to mix the Druid and Wizard levels, using the Bard/Cleric levels as the sort of throwaway effect other casters get from taking a level or two of Fighter or Rogue. But then again, I'd say that's just yet another example of how multi-caster PrCs like Mystic Theurge or Cerebremancer are outright broken.

I actually had an evil NPC that was a Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Cleric/Bard/Rogue before adding ShadowDancer, Assassin, and Blackguard levels. (Oh, and he was a Halfling Werepanther. I called him "Tattoo", which confused the party into thinking he was psionic.) Of course, he was made solely to abuse the multiclass system to create a comparable-level enemy that a group of six couldn't trivially wipe out, so in a way he's a complete validation of this sort of thread.

---------------------------------

Oh, and on the subject of house rules and melee multiclassing, I'd like to add another house rule my group adopted, which coincidentally helped with this issue. It's kind of long.

Weapon proficiencies are divided into eight categories, similar to the old AD&D system: Bladed (swords), Projectile, Piercing (daggers and spears), Hafted (axes and polearms), Blunt (maces, flails, staves), Natural (unarmed, gauntlets, claws, etc.), Ray (including Firearms), and Thrown. The "Martial Weapon Proficiency" feat gives you proficiency with an entire category.
Each character starts off with Natural proficiency. Certain races start with additional, limited proficiencies (Elves, for instance). And "Simple" weapons don't require a proficiency, of course.
If you take a caster class at level 1 you get the Ray proficiency for free. (We changed how ray spells work a bit, but you can use a standard -4 nonproficiency penalty and it'll be close enough.)
If you take a non-caster class at level 1 you get two of the others instead. For most classes one of the two is predetermined (Rangers get Projectile, Rogues get Piercing, Barbarians get Hafted, etc.) and the other can be chosen freely, while Fighters can just pick any two.
Each class has a progression of free proficiencies, depending purely on class level. For casters it's 6/12/18, for the 3/4 BAB melee types (Rogue, Bard, Monk) it's 5/10/15/20, for the full-BAB types it's usually 4/8/12/16/20, except Fighters are 3/6/9/12/15/18. (PrCs use similar progressions.)

So, the hypothetical Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Rogue/Bard/Psychic Warrior/etc. will never reach a high enough class level to receive any proficiencies beyond what he started with, while someone who sticks with a single class will only take a handful of levels to reach the point where they can use all the weapons they're likely to need. Plus, this gives a reason for a Fighter to take a third level.

 

[Nel]

-Intermediary (or hybrid) classes are required for characters to change their style (CO Nel).

That was an idea among others of what could be done, an example made on the fly, I did not imply a "must" about this.
The purpose in itself is not to have a ridiculously large amount of new core classes (what could very well happen if the principle was followed to the letter) but rather to have something that allow characters to change what they can do at the cost of having to work as hard and as long as the two concepts used by the classes are far from each other on a "graduated scale".
If a graduated scale can be created for this kind of things, of course.
Example: a "fighter" want to become a "priest" (divine magic user with more powerful spells but less martial skills and less resistance than a cleric).
The grid shows the way as such: Fighter->Paladin->Cleric->Priest
By taking one level in the paladin class then one in the cleric class before being able to take his first level in the priest class he must take the time and effort to become "enlightened" in the religious ways while leaving behind him his martial point of view.
If he want to retain the ability to gain levels in the fighter class then he will have to take more levels in each pal/cleric class because broadening his mind is more difficult than simply changing his mind.

But that's nothing more than that, an example, what I wanted to say is that it takes time to change his way of life and it should be taken in consideration when multiclassing, whatever the system.

-Humans and half-elves should have a generic advantage but not a specific advantage when it comes to multiclassing (CO Nel; btw I'm not entirely sure what you meant by this, perhaps you could elaborate).

Simple, a halfling will make a good rogue but a bad paladin while a human will turn out to be in the middle range of effectiveness as a rogue or a paladin.
Humans and half-elves, if not modified for anything else than multiclassing, should not be at the top in anything but not at the bottom in anything, whatever the class they should have steadfast results.
So, multiclassing should bring them polyvalency and make them able to stand their ground in several situations (and not kick-*ss whatever the situation) when another more specialized character goes from being useless to being essential depending of the dangers encountered.
In fact, if you look at it from this point of view, multiclassing should be their strength.

-Class levels should be balanced both within a class and from one class to another (CO Nel).

Indeed, not only for the purpose of multiclassing but because it's more fair to the players.
For example, all the levels of a fighter offer more or less the same basic advantages: same BAB, same number of skill points, same potential hp and so on; the only things that do not follow this rule are base saves and feats, but you can consider that each level bring you a part of the next feat/save point even if it can't be used yet because it's not whole.
Now look at a wizard, would you say that the 2nd level brings things as powerful as the 16th does ?
By the way it's very simple to show, at low level fighters are better than wizards, but at high level it's the opposite situation, the issue is clear: the gain in power is not constant from one level/class to the other.


What I mean with these three points is that the most secured and stable way to create a balanced multiclassing system is (imo of course) :

-to even races' power without destroying their exotism, for example by having some that are specialized (excellent in a first class, good in a second, bad in a third, awful in a fourth and middle for the others) and some that are mundane (so-so in everything but with no damning flaw).

-to create a system that does not allow everything on the spot but is still "free" enough to be fun, a system with which the player can choose by himself where he want to go knowing that the ticket's price will fit the length of the travel.

-to even classes'/levels' power, meaning that a 20th level cleric will not be more powerful than a 10th fighter/10th druid (save peculiar situations).
I know this point had been looked for since 1st D&D, but it has to be taken in consideration to some extent, if multiclass is...well, not broken but kind of broken, it's partly because classes and levels are not equal.

Of course, all of this range from pretty hard to close to impossible, but it's the better way if you consider the final result and not the effort it would take.

 

[green slime]

I suppose you could actually use Mystic Theurge on that to mix the Druid and Wizard levels, using the Bard/Cleric levels as the sort of throwaway effect other casters get from taking a level or two of Fighter or Rogue. But then again, I'd say that's just yet another example of how multi-caster PrCs like Mystic Theurge or Cerebremancer are outright broken.

??? WTF ??? How on earth does this spectularly weak character prove how the Mystic Theurge or Cerebremancer are broken?!?! The porposed character is an even weaker still.

 

[Nifft]

Actually, it's not quite as terrible as you make out, because some of that's actually a nice baseline for a melee character. Bear with me, here. One level of Cleric can be really handy, if only for the domain granted powers (Luck, for instance?) and the heavy armor proficiency. A level of Bard is pretty handy, too; decent skills, a 1/day group-helping bard song, that sort of thing. And assuming you keep the armor light for the Bard, the Druid and Wizard don't hurt either.

I'm trying to bear with you, but I'm not seeing how BAB +0 is a decent set up for melee ANYTHING. I'm also not understanding your argument about armor. Is Heavy a bonus, or are you sticking to Light?

-- N

 

[awayfarer]

Compare a Ftr4 to a Bbn1/Ftr1/Rgr1/Rog1. What does the Ftr4 have that the Bbn1/Ftr1/Rgr1/Rog1 doesn't?

Well, lets see...

1: This character would still have a +0 will save. Unless they take yet another class, this character will still not have even a +1 until 6th level.

2: Dex for the rogue and ranger skills, Str and Con for melee. Maybe Int for a few more skill points. Cha and Wis may not be a factor. Basically, ability scores will need to be spread out to make use of every classes skills/nifty stuff.

3: Can't make use of the fighters heavy armor proficiency as it will cancel out the barbarians fast movement and the rangers combat style. Can't make good use of medium armor proficiency either as it will cancel out the rangers combat style goodies. Furthermore, using heavier than light armor will give a nice penalty to their already meager rogue skills.

4: This character is simply sub-par at everything. As a rogue, they will likely be behind in at least one skill, probably more. Futhermore, staying a sub-level 10 rogue means that they lack a rogues post 10th level special abilities. As a tank they are (admittedly only slightly) behind a character who stuck with a full bab class. They will never get the rangers spells or animal companion (at least not to an apreciable level), and these are class benefits that are already a little weak. Wild empathy will be so weak as to be pointless. One favored enemy at only +2 is also going to seem lacking eventually.

5: Overlapping abilities. Rogues and barbarians both get uncanny dodge and trap sense. Rogues and rangers both get evasion.

6: What to do after level 4? Continuing to take a level of each will lead to a character who does everything as well as four 5th level characters. Continuing as two or three means XP penalties. Sticking with one class at this point means that you have three levels of other classes with abilities that are probably almost useless at higher levels.

Personally, I think multi-classing is what it is. You trade focus for versatility. It may or may not be worth it. The 4th level fighter might not be as flexible at that level but their better at what they actually can do.

 

[DungeonMaester]

>Personaly, I see heavy multi-calssing (more than three) a breetch of role playing. Most players can come up with a good reason that a Barb multi classed (such as Barb Dad+Sorc Mom= Barb with spell casting that has to be practiced rather than innate abilties) But when some one plays a pldn 3 mnk 3 rge 3 its not becuase there is a good role play reason behind it, but becuase they are -trying- to powergame.

> Becuase I enforce the DMG level up rule where you have to train for x time in order to gain a level ( I do level instead of feat and skill ) Multi classing has to be thought up in advance and well role played, or else you have a barb3 agruing with a Sorc13 the extend of the barbs magic abilties.

>An other personal rule I have is that players can only have (3). This is A base class, and your pick of 2 others:

Template
Another base class
Prc

Also, I allow Savage Speices and Race templates Bassed off (SS) For people who want to play thier favorite race when other wise, incapable to. (ECL)

>The agrument people try to make against my ruling is that I force players to sacrafice 'effectiveness' for the sake of my so called 'higher role playiong ethics'
which is untrue. A well thought out plan can beat out powergaming. There has been campaigns where my first level characters have killed party anywhere from 6-10 with a first level character. (Obvoisly, it was istances where the Dm ethier wanted me to kill the party, or was a PvP That I joined it at a severly reduced level, with other circumstances for other times I killed a party at level one, not just becuse I thought 'Gee, these guys are nothing but powergamers..im going to kill them with a first level character.')

>My rules have served me well thus far, I hope they serve some one else well also.

Sorry in advance for typos.

---Rusty

 

[airwalkrr]

O RLY!?!

Here, I will create the ULTIMATE POWER:

Wiz 1 / Drd 1 / Clr 1 / Brd 1

+ Awesome saves!!!
+ FOUR kinds of spellcasting!!! (each one counts as a class feature, right?)
+ Better hit points than a Wizard!
+ Bard song!
+ Bard and Druid skill points!
+ Animal Companion!
+ Turn Undead!
+ Familiar!
+ Wild Empathy!
+ A Domain!
+ Another Domain!
+ A free Feat (Scribe Scroll)!
+ A free spellbook with a bunch of spells in it!

Now, who exactly is going to stand up and tell me THIS guy is overpowered?

Thanks, -- N

That's like saying a wizard with weapon focus (quarterstaff) is weaker than the wizard with spell focus (evocation). It's easy to build a character that is intentionally underpowered so this proves nothing.

My exposition focused on classes that fill similar roles in the party. In other words, classes that have synergy with each other. The problem is that classes have too much synergy with each other to the point where a mutt of four classes has more options and abilities than a character of only one class. Compare a Bbn5/Ftr5/Rgr5/Rog5 to a Bbn20, Ftr20, Rgr20, or Rog20. The character can fight as well as any of them. There is not an appreciable difference between a BAB of 18 and 20. Not getting greater rage isn't going to cripple this character, he has +3d6 sneak attack, weapon focus, and weapon specialization to make up for that. Not having DR doesn't really hurt, he has evasion and great saving throws. I could go on but it would take all night.

But the Bbn5/Ftr5/Rgr5/Rog5 isn't even the biggest problem. The Bbn2/Clr1/Ftr4/hexblade1/marshal2/Rgr2/Rog2/dervish1/duelist1/exotic weapon master1/frenzied berzerker1/occult slayer2 is a big problem. Maybe this build isn't even possible (I'd have to check the feats closely to be sure), but I have no doubt something close is. The character has almost as many classes as he has levels. He has INCREDIBLE saving throws, such that he doesn't need to worry about very many saving throws except Will and he has a marshal aura to enhance that. He can rage and frenzy to get +10 to his Strength 1/day and has the Luck domain to get rerolls and the travel domain to automatically escape unfavorable grapples. He has evasion AND mettle which means he won't often be taking much damage from spells. I mean, the only problem with playing this character is remembering to apply every single special ability he has.

I can go on and on. The point is, classes are front-loaded to the point that multiclassing is almost always advantageous. Obviously you can build a multiclass character that isn't TEH AWESUM!, but anyone can intentionally build a weak character. You don't have to try very hard to make a multiclass character that is better than a single class one though.

 

[irdeggman]

What you have very clearly shown is the "problem" with the core rules and saving throw progression. They are very heavily weighted for first levle of a class. Instead try the fractional bonus progression of Unearthed Arcana - things will even up a lot.

By taking only a single level of each class (except the highest) you are avoiding the single largest restriction for mutliclassing - the xp penalty.

Try adding in 3 more character levels (not 3 per class - but three total) - then weigh the things out and see what happens.

What you have ended up with is a character who someone who can do a lot of things - but none of them exceptionally well.

A single classed character will always be better than a multiclassed one at a single focus.

Compare your "hybrid" character to the single classed fighter. Which one is the best combatant (melee or ranged)? The fighter.

Use a single classed character of a different class and compare them to see which one is better at the single focus? In every case it should be the single classed character. This is especially prevalent in the case of spell casters. Multiclassing spellcasters shows the true weakness in multiclassing by slowing down their spell progression and caster level.

 

[Nifft]

That's like saying a wizard with weapon focus (quarterstaff) is weaker than the wizard with spell focus (evocation). It's easy to build a character that is intentionally underpowered so this proves nothing.

Right. You get half of my point.

The other half is: the "numerical proof" above is a deeply flawed argument. This was an example of something that looks better, but sucks a lot. The reason that it sucks is: it totally lacks focus, the (very many) abilities do not synergize, and they do not support a consistant 'niche'.

You don't have to try very hard to make a multiclass character that is better than a single class one though.

I would rather say: it's not very hard to make a multiclass character that is better than a single-class Fighter. I don't think you can make a better melee PC than a single-class Barbarian, Cleric or Druid (specific winner depends on level), unless your foes all have very low ACs and take Sneak Attack damage, in which case a Ftr/Rog or Bbn/Rog might be best.

Cheers, -- N