The Multiclass Question

airwalkrr said:
Bbn2/Clr1/Ftr4/hexblade1/marshal2/Rgr2/Rog2/dervish1/duelist1/exotic weapon master1/frenzied berzerker1/occult slayer2 is a big problem. Maybe this build isn't even possible (I'd have to check the feats closely to be sure), but I have no doubt something close is. The character has almost as many classes as he has levels. He has INCREDIBLE saving throws, such that he doesn't need to worry about very many saving throws except Will and he has a marshal aura to enhance that.

Monks can do that. Clr/Mnk can do it all with fantastic BAB (via divine power). Maybe Clerics are the broken part.

Getting into Occult Slayer isn't trivial, Dervish and Duelist each have pre-reqs, and Exotic Weapon Master costs you at least one extra feat too. Please *do* post how you get into those. Also note that allowing Frenzied Berserker is rare ... and not just among DMs. The other players hate them too.

Cheers, -- N
 

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Nifft said:
I'm trying to bear with you, but I'm not seeing how BAB +0 is a decent set up for melee ANYTHING. I'm also not understanding your argument about armor. Is Heavy a bonus, or are you sticking to Light?

Well, as someone who's played a 3/4 BAB class (Psychic Warrior) for a while, I can say that it's not too crippling to lose a point or two of BAB if you have other abilities that can compensate. A Clr1/Brd1 who then goes six levels of Barbarian or Ranger will have the same BAB as a comparable-level Rogue, Monk, or PsyWar. Suboptimal? Maybe, but it's not that bad. Look at how many people take a level or two of Rogue for the massive skill points, and lose a BAB point in the process.

If you're playing a Ranger who intends to go into a PrC that doesn't advance his Favored Enemy or spellcasting abilities (like Horizon Walker), then it's actually a good choice to mix up those first few levels. Granted, when I did this I went Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Horizon Walker, and I could have mixed in a couple Rogue levels, but looking back I think Cleric wouldn't have actually been a bad choice, if you could get non-level-dependent abilities like the Luck and Travel domains.

As for the armor thing: it's up to the player. You CAN go Heavy, and deal with spell failure for your very few Bard spells. Or, you can go Light. It's up to you.

My only point was that when people talk about front-loading and rampant multiclassing, they almost always use Ftr/Rog/Rng/Bbn/etc. as the example, but Cleric and Bard actually mix in well, and for the light-armor types, Druid isn't that bad either.
If your Rogue is already going to be wearing leather armor, why not toss in a Druid level or two? You'll get a boost to your Fort and Will saves, some minor spellcasting ability, a few extra weapon proficiencies, etc. Sure, it'll keep you from getting to the cool high-level Rogue abilities, but if you were intending to take a PrC by level 10 anyway, what's the difference?
 

As fate would have it, a player for the Living Greyhawk campaign recently retired. He emailed me his character for use as an NPC in our region (I am a triad). For those who are not in the know, Living Greyhawk does not typically use house rules as the Circle (the directors of the campaign) are required to use game rule information as written unless it conflicts with the campaign (such as evil characters). The player has the following build:

Diviner 5/Archmage 2/Divine Oracle 2/Fatespinner 4/Loremaster 1/Wayfarer Guide 1

Now compare that to a 15th level wizard and tell me the wizard is equal. The wizard gains the following from levels 6-15:
-familiar benefits
-two bonus wizard feats
-10 levels of spellcasting
-+5 BAB
-+3 Fort, +3 Ref, +4 Will

By contrast, the divine oracle, fatespinner, loremaster, warfarer's guide, and archmage classes give the following:
-10 levels of spellcasting
-mastery of shaping
-mastery of elements
-oracle domain (cast divination spells at +2 caster level)
-scry bonus (+1 sacred bonus to DC of scrying spells)
-prescient sense (evasion)
-trap sense +1
-spin fate (4 points per day)
-fickle finger of fate (immediate action: friend or enemy re-rolls any roll)
-spin destiny (4 points per day)
-deny fate (automatically stable when dying 1/day)
-resist fate (reroll 1/day)
-secret (knowledge of true avoidance)
-enhanced capacity (1 extra character when teleporting)
-improved range (+50% range when teleporting)
-+4 BAB
-+1 Fort, +1 Ref, +14 Will

Now tell me which character you'd rather play. Only a fool would choose the wizard. Perhaps this highlights a problem with prestige classes. In this case, I would suggest that the idealized multiclassing rule must include prohibitions against excessive prestige classes. Perhaps a limit to the number that can be taken or an XP penalty.

----------

Regarding the Bbn2/Clr1/Ftr4/hexblade1/marshal2/Rgr2/Rog2/dervish1/duelist1/exotic weapon master1/frenzied berzerker1/occult slayer2, it is indeed possible. A human takes his first six levels as Bbn2/Ftr4, taking the following feats:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (butterfly sword) 1
Destructive Rage 1
Weapon Focus (butterfly sword) 3
Intimidating Rage 3
Improved Initiative 4
Power Attack 6
Cleave 6

At 7th level, he take frenzied berzerker. At 8th and 9th level, he takes occult slayer.

Dodge 9

At 10th level, he takes exotic weapon master. At 11th level, he takes cleric of the Lucky Traveller with luck and travel as his domains. At 12th level, he takes hexblade (hello, mettle).

Mobility 12

At 13th and 14th he takes rogue (hello evasion). At 15th and 16th level he takes ranger (and now he starts dual-wielding).

Combat Expertise 15

At 17th and 18th level, he takes marshal (bonus on melee attack rolls and force of will to boost his Will save).

Weapon Finesse 18

Now he can take dervish and duelist.

Of course this build isn't really optimal. I thought of it on the spur of the moment. But despite a few oversights (like the futility of power attack when using a butterfly sword), the build is phenomenally robust. I'm sure a more optimal feat arrangement could be selected as well. With the +11 base Will saving throw (far better than any single class frontline character could hope for unless he is a knight, hexblade, or paladin), he can afford to have a low Wisdom score. With a cloak of charisma (he uses a vest of resistance), his Will save can be even higher thanks to his marshal force of will aura. When not raging or frenzying, he can combat expertise to get a great AC. Even if he sticks to light armor, he will have a respectable AC. We could probably drop the duelist in favor of another prestige class and nix the weapon finesse requirement, leaving us open to use a better slashing weapon; even a bastard sword would let us power attack freely. And if we swap weapon finesse for oversized two-weapon fighting, he doesn't take a penalty for dual-wielding bastard swords, yay!

I'm tempted to build this character, but I don't think I will because it isn't necessary to prove my point. Even fantastic saving throws aside, this character is a force to be reckoned with. As a primary frontline melee combatant, I have no doubt this character will outperform the fighter on almost everything, even if the fighter has the PH2 feats at his disposal. This character can tumble, dervish dance, rage, frenzy, take no damage when he passes saving throws (which will be often), re-roll once per day, escape from a grapple for free once per day, deal an extra d6 damage against spellcasters or creatures with spell-like abilities (at high levels almost everything), free action spell turning once per day, sneak attack for +1d6 (with his speed and tumbling, this will be often against creatures that are vulnerable to it), power attack for x2 damage thanks to exotic weapon master (and he's dual-wielding, how about that!).

The fighter might pick up some nifty tricks like the special abilities and feats from PH2 or spring attack. A barbarian might have more hit points, more rages, and damage reduction. A ranger gets some cool spells and more attacks when two-weapon fighting. None of this stuff really compares to the multiclass character's myriad abilities.

There are tons of common multiclass characters. Spatzimaus mentions the common rogue 1st level trick. There is also the "every fighter is also a barbarian" and "every barbarian is also a fighter" problem; there really is no good reason not to dip into one if you have the other. Ranger and bard are common dip classes simply for the skill points. A level of wizard (diviner) or sorcerer to get true strike three or four times per day (no arcane spell failure since it lacks somatic components) is not a bad deal for a melee character who wants that full power attack to hit a high AC foe. A level of cleric for a reroll is great idea. A couple levels of paladin to boost your saves if you are a high charisma character is rarely a bad decision, even for dedicated casters like a sorcerer. The list goes on ad infinitum.

Now we can argue ad nauseum about this, but I have made my point. If you aren't convinced by now, you have probably already made up your mind not to change your opinion. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, then simply don't post in this thread. This thread is for people who agree with the assumption that multiclassing is flawed towards creating overpowered characters.
 
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airwalkrr said:
As fate would have it, a player for the Living Greyhawk campaign recently retired. He emailed me his character for use as an NPC in our region (I am a triad). For those who are not in the know, Living Greyhawk does not typically use house rules as the Circle (the directors of the campaign) are required to use game rule information as written unless it conflicts with the campaign (such as evil characters). The player has the following build:

Diviner 5/Archmage 2/Divine Oracle 2/Fatespinner 4/Loremaster 1/Wayfarer Guide 1

Now compare that to a 15th level wizard and tell me the wizard is equal. The wizard gains the following from levels 6-15:
-familiar benefits
-two bonus wizard feats
-10 levels of spellcasting
-+5 BAB
-+3 Fort, +3 Ref, +4 Will

By contrast, the divine oracle, fatespinner, loremaster, warfarer's guide, and archmage classes give the following:
-10 levels of spellcasting
-mastery of shaping
-mastery of elements
-oracle domain (cast divination spells at +2 caster level)
-scry bonus (+1 sacred bonus to DC of scrying spells)
-prescient sense (evasion)
-trap sense +1
-spin fate (4 points per day)
-fickle finger of fate (immediate action: friend or enemy re-rolls any roll)
-spin destiny (4 points per day)
-deny fate (automatically stable when dying 1/day)
-resist fate (reroll 1/day)
-secret (knowledge of true avoidance)
-enhanced capacity (1 extra character when teleporting)
-improved range (+50% range when teleporting)
-+4 BAB
-+1 Fort, +1 Ref, +14 Will

Now tell me which character you'd rather play. Only a fool would choose the wizard. Perhaps this highlights a problem with prestige classes. In this case, I would suggest that the idealized multiclassing rule must include prohibitions against excessive prestige classes. Perhaps a limit to the number that can be taken or an XP penalty.

This is not a case of mutliclassing it is a case of Prestige Classes being "better" than core classes.

This PC has 1 core class and 5 Presitge Classes.

A few things that are off in the calculations.

The "multiclass" only has 2 less levels of spellcasting. The Fatespinner loses caster levels at 1st and 3rd level.

I don't understand the 10 levels of spellcasting though. A 15th level wizard has 15 levels of spellcasting. The 15th level wizard gets 8th level spells while the multiclasser is limmited to 7th.

The character also has his familiar limited to a 5th level wizard's benefits (since none of these Prestige Classes alow the familiar character's caster level increase to count towards improving familiar benefits. He is still gets to count his character level for those benefits though.
 


irdeggman said:
This is not a case of mutliclassing it is a case of Prestige Classes being "better" than core classes.

This PC has 1 core class and 5 Presitge Classes.

Nice of you to read my post and pick up on that piece of information that I clearly noted.

That notwithstanding, prestige classes are still a form of multiclassing.

irdeggman said:
A few things that are off in the calculations.

The "multiclass" only has 2 less levels of spellcasting. The Fatespinner loses caster levels at 1st and 3rd level.

I would hazard a guess that you are using the Tome & Blood version of the Fatespinner. The Living Greyhawk campaign uses the most up-to-date campaign rules. In this case, the Fatespinner is the Complete Arcane version, which gains +1 to spellcasting at all levels but level 5. Hence, this character, who has only four levels of fatespinner, is not missing any caster levels.

irdeggman said:
I don't understand the 10 levels of spellcasting though. A 15th level wizard has 15 levels of spellcasting. The 15th level wizard gets 8th level spells while the multiclasser is limmited to 7th.

They are both 15th level casters (see above). Please note the following:

airwalkrr said:
The wizard gains the following from levels 6-15:
(emphasis added)

irdeggman said:
The character also has his familiar limited to a 5th level wizard's benefits (since none of these Prestige Classes alow the familiar character's caster level increase to count towards improving familiar benefits. He is still gets to count his character level for those benefits though.

Agreed. Note I did list familiar benefits for the wizard levels but NOT for the prestige class levels. Now regarding whether or not that is significant, no, familiar benefits are not as significant as the ability to force an opponent to reroll any roll he has just made or the ability to increase the save DC of one of your spells by 4 on the fly or the ability to have your fireballs deal sonic damage on the fly...
 

> Ah man, whats a guy got to do to get his ideals depated? 5 threads, no hits!

>The problem from what i see with CCing is that there is no reason not to! You get the best of both classes when you CC (The highest BAB, Saves, Ect) Theorically, you should be more limited in not only class fetures, skills, and saves and everything that goes with, becuase you are spliting your training. Example: Some one who trains in judo, and all the skills with go with during the day and practices swordfighitng and all the skills durning the night wont be as skilled as a person who only studies only judo or swordfighting all day.

>So when cross clasing I think a player chooses:

1) Take ethier the highest BAB or Highest Saves
2) Highest skill point/lower skills or More skills/lower skill points.
3) Class abiltiy.

>This gives cross classing is a balance, while giving the player the choice on what skills the character is learning.

Sorry for any typos in advance

---Rusty
 

Sadrik said:
What is you suggestion for fixing it?

I think fixing the saves would go a long way.

Sadrik

I have a number of suggestions, but I'm not trying to fix multiclassing just yet. The goal of this thread is to ask EnWorlders what they think the elements of a balanced multiclassing system are. I will take those suggestions and make them into a poll. Then, I will use the results of the poll as the basis for a thread devoted to "answering" the multiclass question.
 

airwalkrr said:
I have a number of suggestions, but I'm not trying to fix multiclassing just yet. The goal of this thread is to ask EnWorlders what they think the elements of a balanced multiclassing system are. I will take those suggestions and make them into a poll. Then, I will use the results of the poll as the basis for a thread devoted to "answering" the multiclass question.

Multiclassing seems to only become an issue when multiple PrC come into play. The core classes seem to loose alot by multicalassing excessively. Any more than two PrCs usually means the player has done some serious cherry picking. A hard limit on PrC to two per character would tone down this issue quite a bit. The other option is too req the casting level loss at 1st level in the PrC rather than fifth as per the fatespinner unless the PrC reqs levels in a non-stacking caster class (ie mystic theurge / eldritch knight are fine).
 

airwalkrr said:
Nice of you to read my post and pick up on that piece of information that I clearly noted.

That notwithstanding, prestige classes are still a form of multiclassing.

Sorry but using Prestige Classes for comparison purposes is using a "loaded" deck. Prestige Classes are "special" - they are more powerful than standard classes and in both 3.0 and 3.5 specifically do not count towards the multi-class xp penalty (which is the main balancer when it comes to multi-classing).



I would hazard a guess that you are using the Tome & Blood version of the Fatespinner. The Living Greyhawk campaign uses the most up-to-date campaign rules. In this case, the Fatespinner is the Complete Arcane version, which gains +1 to spellcasting at all levels but level 5. Hence, this character, who has only four levels of fatespinner, is not missing any caster levels.

Well this where I went to find potential sources for Prestige Classes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc

I then chose the 3.0 version (since as I point out below the Divine Oracle is a pure 3.0 Prestige Class).

You can't take the Divine Oracle Prestige Class since it is from Defenders of the Faith and will not work with 3.5 rules. Its prerequisites are totally based on the scry skill (which doesn't exist in 3.5).


Agreed. Note I did list familiar benefits for the wizard levels but NOT for the prestige class levels. Now regarding whether or not that is significant, no, familiar benefits are not as significant as the ability to force an opponent to reroll any roll he has just made or the ability to increase the save DC of one of your spells by 4 on the fly or the ability to have your fireballs deal sonic damage on the fly...

Yup a once a day benefit correct? Compared to a familiar which is "always on".

Please compare apples to apples when justifying the imbalance of multiclassing. Prestige Classes are unique and designed to be more powerful.

Also include the favored class restrictions into the formulas and multiclass xp penalties which combine to force the balance in multiclassing (something you have so far specifically formulated to avoid).

In your first example - the barbarian loses his increased movement if he is wearing armor heavier than medium and skill check penalties when in heavier than light armor, the rogue suffers increasing Skill check penalties when he is wearing armor heavier than light, and a ranger loses his combat style (in 3.5) when wearing greater than light armor (in 3.0 he loses the ability to fight 2 handed as if he had Ambidesxterity and 2 weapon fighting).
 

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