The Multiclass Question

[irdeggman]

Multiclassing seems to only become an issue when multiple PrC come into play. The core classes seem to loose alot by multicalassing excessively. Any more than two PrCs usually means the player has done some serious cherry picking. A hard limit on PrC to two per character would tone down this issue quite a bit. The other option is too req the casting level loss at 1st level in the PrC rather than fifth as per the fatespinner unless the PrC reqs levels in a non-stacking caster class (ie mystic theurge / eldritch knight are fine).

I agree with this one.

Unless using Prestige Classes - multiclassing with spellcasting classes costs them too much to do.

Which means the the real problem is not multiclassing but allowing more than 1 Prestige Class or Prestige Classes with full spellcasting progressions.

 

[airwalkrr]

The more rope I give you...

Sorry but using Prestige Classes for comparison purposes is using a "loaded" deck. Prestige Classes are "special" - they are more powerful than standard classes and in both 3.0 and 3.5 specifically do not count towards the multi-class xp penalty (which is the main balancer when it comes to multi-classing).

I did not use only prestige classes. So focusing solely on that argument is setting up a straw man.

Well this where I went to find potential sources for Prestige Classes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc

I then chose the 3.0 version (since as I point out below the Divine Oracle is a pure 3.0 Prestige Class).

You can't take the Divine Oracle Prestige Class since it is from Defenders of the Faith and will not work with 3.5 rules. Its prerequisites are totally based on the scry skill (which doesn't exist in 3.5).

Well you made an error then. The Living Greyhawk campaign uses 3.5 rules. I believe it is also assumed, unless the OP states otherwise in his thread, that we are discussing the most current rules of the game. Please drop the 3.0 issue since this thread does not concern itself with 3.0 any more than it concerns itself with AD&D unless a useful comparison can be made. In this instance, we are talking about 3.5 versions of the classes and the old versions are irrelevent. And FYI, Divine Oracle has been updated in Complete Divine and it is completely legal for an arcane spellcaster to take it.

Yup a once a day benefit correct? Compared to a familiar which is "always on".

Granted. Some of the listed abilities are once a day, like the fatespinner's. The archmage is not so restricted. Regardless of the limitations on uses per day, I would gladly exchange my familiar benefits and a wizard bonus feat for the fatespinner benefits. As I have noted several times before, this may indeed simply be evidence that prestige classes are overpowered. I believe we agree on this issue however, so how about we drop it and focus on multiclassing base classes.

Please compare apples to apples when justifying the imbalance of multiclassing. Prestige Classes are unique and designed to be more powerful.

I provided this as an example with the caveat that it may simply be evidence that prestige classes are too powerful. You respond with "well your example is bad because prestige classes are too powerful." I don't see you making any point I haven't already made.

Also include the favored class restrictions into the formulas and multiclass xp penalties which combine to force the balance in multiclassing (something you have so far specifically formulated to avoid).

The fact that XP penalties "encourage" base classes to be balanced with each other is the reason I have avoided using examples that have XP penalties. My implication is that XP penalties are not penalizing enough, because a character can still be designed that avoids XP penalties with very little difficulty.

In your first example - the barbarian loses his increased movement if he is wearing armor heavier than medium and skill check penalties when in heavier than light armor, the rogue suffers increasing Skill check penalties when he is wearing armor heavier than light, and a ranger loses his combat style (in 3.5) when wearing greater than light armor (in 3.0 he loses the ability to fight 2 handed as if he had Ambidesxterity and 2 weapon fighting).

So a character can't use heavy or medium armor proficiency; the loss of two virtual feats. The multiclass character is still more powerful if he sticks to light armor. And if he is going with a mithral breastplate (as such a character will eventually do when he is high enough level), he isn't losing that much.

Now that I have addressed your concerns, I would like the thread to get back on topic once again. As the OP, I presume, for the purposes of this thread that multiclassing is overpowered. I do not wish to discuss whether you agree with this presumption on this thread anymore, although I would be happy to continue the debate in another thread if you wish to create one. I will not be addressing any more posters who snap back with arguments that multiclassing is balanced.

 

[irdeggman]

Now that I have addressed your concerns, I would like the thread to get back on topic once again. As the OP, I presume, for the purposes of this thread that multiclassing is overpowered. I do not wish to discuss whether you agree with this presumption on this thread anymore, although I would be happy to continue the debate in another thread if you wish to create one. I will not be addressing any more posters who snap back with arguments that multiclassing is balanced.

To make a balanced multiclassing system there needs to be penalties associated with multiclassing. These need to be strict and not easily bypassed.

A player should be able to choose to have a character that is really good at a few things or average at a lot.

The more classes a character takes the weaker at any single one of them he should be when compared to another character that stayed focused on one aspect.

 

[Nifft]

Wizard (and Cleric) PrCs are, by and large, overpowered. They should lose a level of spellcasting up front, just like nearly every Psionic PrC loses one or more level of manifesting. This has been noted in many places. I totally agree that stacking lots of PrCs is the golden path of cheese, and that it's both massively profitable and too easily practicable for Wizards. You're absolutely right in that case.

It should also be noted that Prestige Classes are listed as a variant rule set in the DMG, and thus they are not actually in the Rules As Written. (But they sure as hell are in the Rules As Played, so I'm only going to make this as a nit-picky little point.) So, that's out of the way.

You're absolutely wrong about base classes, but I doubt I'll ever convince you of that.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Alceste]

So a character can't use heavy or medium armor proficiency; the loss of two virtual feats. The multiclass character is still more powerful if he sticks to light armor. And if he is going with a mithral breastplate (as such a character will eventually do when he is high enough level), he isn't losing that much.

You will find a large amount of disagreement on multiclassing the core classes being overpowered. The MAD issues are extremely large and helps to balance out the benifits gained. IE the 4th level fighter (painbringer) Str 23 (+2 gaunt), Dex 10, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 10, Chr 6 with a +1 greatsword will be dealing 2d6 +20 vs mobs with low armor classes. He will be sitting at AC 19 (plate +1) while doing this. This level of damage requires multiple feats and very specialized stats all focused on making him better at a specific aspect of the game. Characters that attempt to be too broad typically fail to be effective enough in a particular role. When I want a rogue to disable a trap that will otherwise kill me, I want the rogue to be dam good at it. The same goes for a dps fighter killing a mob. Faster mob is dead less likely mob will crit and kill me.

PrCs are as someone pointed out the path to cheese. Any campaign that does not limit the number of PrCs a character can have will have issues with cheese. Not to mention those PrCs that are simply overpowered (occult slayer / divine oracle for wizards are way up there).

 

[irdeggman]

Another thing I would recommend is using the fractional BAB and saving throw bonuses from Unearthed Arcana (pg 73). While these will in the long run allow higher bonuses they will help alleviate the "sudden" increase gained by taking a single level of a class and provide a smoother progression IMO.

I see 2 issues here.

1. Potential questions on the imbalance of Prestige Classes. {Which IMO leads to the most obvious abusing of the system since they are more powerful than core clases and have a built allowance that they don't count towards any multiclassing xp restirctions.}

2. Questions concerning what can happen when power building via multiclassing. For examle taking levels to gain the "best" features of a class.

I would focus on the latter and not try to bring into the discussion the import of classes that are considered to be above the power level of core classes by design. That is Prestige Classes. Trying to fix the effect of them on the system will only lead to extreme frustration because IMO the only way to do that is to either eliminate them all or to pare them down to the point where most would not consider them prestigious at all.

 

[Herobizkit]

VERY easy fix.
But very detailled.

Use d20 Modern's six Basic classes; limit each class to level 10.
Create Talent Trees to represent abilities from each fantasy "core" class.
Create "Occupations" similar to 2e kits, done 3.5 style.

Now you don't have to worry about multi-classing being a "problem", because now there are no more "core" classes. ;P

 

[irdeggman]

VERY easy fix.
But very detailled.

Use d20 Modern's six Basic classes; limit each class to level 10.
Create Talent Trees to represent abilities from each fantasy "core" class.
Create "Occupations" similar to 2e kits, done 3.5 style.

Now you don't have to worry about multi-classing being a "problem", because now there are no more "core" classes. ;P

Or better yet use the 3 generic classes (warrior, expert, spellcaster) from Unearthed Arcana pg 76).

 

[airwalkrr]

A lot productive suggestions, guys. Thanks. I think I will start putting the poll together today.

 

[Quartz]

I'm much freeer in my thoughts about multiclassing. To me, the system actively encourages it. You want good BAB? Then take one of the fighting classes. You want good skills? Then take Rogue or Ranger. Further, there are thematic synergies like Fighter with any non-spellcasting class, but especially Rogue - a Fighter / Rogue being the classic adventurer. Recently there's Paladin / Knight - Pal 4 / Kt 4 is nasty with a decent Cha. Rogue also combines well with Wizard if you can take the spellcasting hit, but better with Ranger. And if you're low-statted, multi-classing really helps - for example, that Cleric 7 / Pal 13 only needs a Wis of 14.