The New 4th Edition God-Killing Rules

[doctorhook]

...

Creating an entire game system requires way more time, effort, and talent than just creating the stat block for a deity. Suggesting that anyone who has the time to write up stats equally one-half of a page has the time to design, develop, playtest, and write a game that is hundreds of pages is beyond ridiculous, it's downright disconnecting from reality.

(Emphasis mine.)

Quoted for truth. And great justice.

 

[justanobody]

So, it comes down to you wanting a giant NPC deathmatch featuring deities?

NPC versus NPC does not show you exactly what is possible with the system. It shows you very little about the system, in fact.

Then throw the 4e Iconics being made around here at Orcus and Tiamat when they are done and compare the results of 10 battles each and see if they are close enough to base a comparison off of just those two deities to create the others.

 

[Obryn]

You have the order backwards.

Oh, I see! Tell you what, hop right on over here...

Circvs Maximvs

...and tell me what's on your mind. You may need to register first. Flame on, man.

I guess as a proof to see exactly what is possible someone needs to try something crazy with 4th and face off Tiamat against Orcus.

See how the deities stand toe-to-toe, to see if the there is enough information to say a DM can create a working representation of a deitie out of Pelor, should they be forced to.

I explained above, that's the Zen of 4e. Monster (and, by extension, deity) stats exist relative to the PCs, and say nothing about the creatures facing each other. You can love or hate this philosophy, but that's kind of outside the point. 4e stats don't work well when you have two creatures or gods duking it out.

Note 1: You don't know how much time a DM has.

Note 2: If a DM has enough time to create a deity, then he has enough time to create his own game and not need ANYTHING from a company that cannot provide the stats for the deities listed in the PHB that has the first occurrence of deities within the game they publish.

Some DMs are, indeed, limited in time. Those DMs are advised to take advantage of things that other people - like WotC designers - have statted out for them.

And you're dramatically overstating if statting up a god takes as much time as making a new system.

-O

 

[Roman]

Let me say this. I don't like 4E. The game just doesn't appeal to me and didn't buy it for that reason. But 4E's treatment of epic-level play (from what I have seen/read of it) is the one area I feel it handles vastly better than 3E. Not extending the level progression indefinitely and planning for good campaign-endings, while giving people epic destinies and powers are very positive developments. The fact that major quests are now officially needed to kill gods, rather than just being able to jump them and destroy them is also a great improvement.

 

[JackSmithIV]

Let me say this. I don't like 4E. The game just doesn't appeal to me and didn't buy it for that reason. But 4E's treatment of epic-level play (from what I have seen/read of it) is the one area I feel it handles vastly better than 3E. Not extending the level progression indefinitely and planning for good campaign-endings, while giving people epic destinies and powers are very positive developments. The fact that major quests are now officially needed to kill gods, rather than just being able to jump them and destroy them is also a great improvement.

Quoted for example-of-what-this-thread-was-before-flame-war.

Discuss game mechanics in a friendly way or GTFO. That's what this thread is for. It's those who come here to tear down what others find fun and enjoyable who are the reason there's such huge division and anger in the RPG community. To move conversation onto a topic that doesn't include flaming eachother...

What are your hopes for future gods to be released? How do you plan to use Tiamat or her consorts (if at all?)? How does this offer new opportunities for epic level play?

Discuss.

 

[justanobody]

What are your hopes for future gods to be released?

All from the PHB at least.

How do you plan to use Tiamat or her consorts (if at all?)?

If ever I get high enough level, I plan to use her in various recipes when I retire the character to his own tavern.

How does this offer new opportunities for epic level play?

Discuss.

Well Tiamat adds a second deity to the combatant list. Something more than Orcus to face in combat, as I fear level 30+ skill challenges would not be comprehensible outside of the game for the players.

 

[Fifth Element]

I would also like to point out that in this supplement, there are a good handful of post-30 epic threats to be found, more of which I'm sure we'll see in future supplements. I'll close by politely imploring you not to turn my nice, happy, game-related thread into a new edition war like the ones you've frequented so very fervently before.

Pardon?

God-killing and epic-level monsters are not the same thing. The poster I was responding to claimed that WotC was forcing their playstyle down our throats, which I thought was a ridiculous claim since the god-killing game information took up a single page in one 4E book.

And remember, all editions of D&D are awesome. Say it with me.

 

[Jack99]

And remember, all editions of D&D are awesome. Say it with me.

Well Tiamat adds a second deity to the combatant list. Something more than Orcus to face in combat, as I fear level 30+ skill challenges would not be comprehensible outside of the game for the players.

Weird, I could have sworn that Orcus was a demon lord. Did the Raven Queen die and make him a god?

 

[yesnomu]

Actually, we're not allowed to. The SRD doesn't contain the pantheon or the terms associated with the new diety-killing rules. We can only really write our own gods and unique ways of killing them that do not resemble the Discorporation System (oh look, I gave it a name). If someone at Wizards could update us all on exactly what is going to happen with the GSL, that would be great. For now, we are in the dark.

Man, I have no idea what WotC is doing with the GSL. You guys took a leap of faith, and now they're letting you twist in the wind.

Come on, Wizards! Let the 3rd parties in on what you're planning, and give them more freedom with products! It's frankly disgusting how opaque you've been about this whole thing.

A book of statted deities (renamed, I suppose, like in the APG, although it'd be nice if they could use the actual names without fear of reprisal) would be a great product for a 3PP, and exactly the sort of thing I'd buy.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Man, I have no idea what WotC is doing with the GSL. You guys took a leap of faith, and now they're letting you twist in the wind.

Come on, Wizards! Let the 3rd parties in on what you're planning, and give them more freedom with products! It's frankly disgusting how opaque you've been about this whole thing.

A book of statted deities (renamed, I suppose, like in the APG, although it'd be nice if they could use the actual names without fear of reprisal) would be a great product for a 3PP, and exactly the sort of thing I'd buy.

I bet someone could call up scott rouse and be like "Hey X Y and Z isn't in the GSL, is there a chance it will be at some point , or are you guys doing something with it?" and explain what they want to do... from everything I have seen Scott is one of 2 things...
1) a great guy who is helpful
2) the devil incarnite (afterall villians that twist there mustashes are easy to find, one that cloaks himself in good deeds? much harder...)