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The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread
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<blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2275347" data-attributes="member: 326"><p>Hey Baranovan mate! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Thats the spirit. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>...and I value your opinion on the matter. But I just don't agree with you on this point, neither from a mechanical point of view, nor a philosophical point of view.</p><p></p><p>Mechanically I know its balanced, and philosophically I know that epic gaming has to expand in new tangents, not simply numerically, to actually have any merit. </p><p></p><p>That means that given infinite possibilities, permanent damage eventually becomes possible. The only question is how powerful is it. Once we have that worked out, we can assign it to an appropriate monster. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>1/5th damage (or x5 CR mod for damage) I think is a very accurate rating of the ability. You disagree?</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I understand that...I thought you were simply addressing the possible concerns of players. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Even though you haven't seen the (two) relevant monsters yet.</p><p>Even though the challenge ratings are accurate.</p><p>Even though I already pre-empted that it might be too powerful for some tastes and included a 'get out of jail' option.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Well I can tell you there are two monsters in the preview that use this ability. So thats 2 from 35.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Not even a little? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>But that doesn't make any sense as far as I can see.</p><p></p><p>According to you its okay for a 30th-level Fighter (for example) to 'permanently' lose 30 hit points from an imposed constitution loss. However its not okay for a 30th-level Fighter to permanently lose 30 hp to a permanent damage attack!?</p><p></p><p>I mean maybe I am just not seeing the wood for the trees here but by the bristling beard of Odin I simply don't see any fundamental difference! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> </p><p></p><p>You also go on to suggest that it would be much better for the character to suffer permanent death than lose some hit points permanently. I mean call me crazy but I just don't see the logic in that!?</p><p></p><p>Weighing up the permanent death of a character on one hand and a permanently reduced hit point total on the other is an easy decision to make.</p><p></p><p>S'mon (playing Hel): "Ha ha ha! Your days are numbered Thrin its either permanent death or the permanent loss of 500 hit points! Which is it to be fool? This'll teach you to mess with the random deity generator!"</p><p></p><p>Upper_Krust (playing Thrin): "Your reputation as the queen of of dead is justified as ever Hel. Curse that 97% roll. Decisions, decisions. I'll go with option B. That drops me to only 1000 hit points damn you woman. A pox be upon you...get your clammy hands off my hit points wench...AARRRGHH!!!... </p><p></p><p>...sometime later. Right now get Odin on the crystal ball and tell him to sell my shares in Microsoft and invest it in amulets of epic health."</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>You can sum all this up in one word. Tactics. </p><p></p><p>Is it overmuch to use Golems or Demiliches on wizards, or Remorhaz or Umbral Blots on monks just because these characters are at a disadvantage!? I don't think so. In such cases smart players adapt their tactics accordingly. Same thing here. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. The potential to take away the very thing PCs hold dear...without killing them. Thats how to add elements of fear without the finality of total desruction.</p><p></p><p>Unless you have a better way of engendering fear mechanically? I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how you can draw these conclusions.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Glad to hear it dude. I can only speak for myself, but any such comments I made were intentionally light-hearted.</p><p></p><p>Though I do actually like the idea of putting 'fear' back into the minds of players. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>This is me remember. Balance is my middle name...of course the kids would make fun of it at school, but hey thats another story. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well if the worst comes to the worst we can always say its permanent constitution drain that can't be restored, then they'll be okay with it, won't they. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Upper_Krust, post: 2275347, member: 326"] Hey Baranovan mate! :) Thats the spirit. :) ...and I value your opinion on the matter. But I just don't agree with you on this point, neither from a mechanical point of view, nor a philosophical point of view. Mechanically I know its balanced, and philosophically I know that epic gaming has to expand in new tangents, not simply numerically, to actually have any merit. That means that given infinite possibilities, permanent damage eventually becomes possible. The only question is how powerful is it. Once we have that worked out, we can assign it to an appropriate monster. 1/5th damage (or x5 CR mod for damage) I think is a very accurate rating of the ability. You disagree? I understand that...I thought you were simply addressing the possible concerns of players. Even though you haven't seen the (two) relevant monsters yet. Even though the challenge ratings are accurate. Even though I already pre-empted that it might be too powerful for some tastes and included a 'get out of jail' option. Well I can tell you there are two monsters in the preview that use this ability. So thats 2 from 35. Not even a little? :( But that doesn't make any sense as far as I can see. According to you its okay for a 30th-level Fighter (for example) to 'permanently' lose 30 hit points from an imposed constitution loss. However its not okay for a 30th-level Fighter to permanently lose 30 hp to a permanent damage attack!? I mean maybe I am just not seeing the wood for the trees here but by the bristling beard of Odin I simply don't see any fundamental difference! :confused: You also go on to suggest that it would be much better for the character to suffer permanent death than lose some hit points permanently. I mean call me crazy but I just don't see the logic in that!? Weighing up the permanent death of a character on one hand and a permanently reduced hit point total on the other is an easy decision to make. S'mon (playing Hel): "Ha ha ha! Your days are numbered Thrin its either permanent death or the permanent loss of 500 hit points! Which is it to be fool? This'll teach you to mess with the random deity generator!" Upper_Krust (playing Thrin): "Your reputation as the queen of of dead is justified as ever Hel. Curse that 97% roll. Decisions, decisions. I'll go with option B. That drops me to only 1000 hit points damn you woman. A pox be upon you...get your clammy hands off my hit points wench...AARRRGHH!!!... ...sometime later. Right now get Odin on the crystal ball and tell him to sell my shares in Microsoft and invest it in amulets of epic health." You can sum all this up in one word. Tactics. Is it overmuch to use Golems or Demiliches on wizards, or Remorhaz or Umbral Blots on monks just because these characters are at a disadvantage!? I don't think so. In such cases smart players adapt their tactics accordingly. Same thing here. I disagree. The potential to take away the very thing PCs hold dear...without killing them. Thats how to add elements of fear without the finality of total desruction. Unless you have a better way of engendering fear mechanically? I'd certainly be interested in hearing it. I don't see how you can draw these conclusions. Glad to hear it dude. I can only speak for myself, but any such comments I made were intentionally light-hearted. Though I do actually like the idea of putting 'fear' back into the minds of players. This is me remember. Balance is my middle name...of course the kids would make fun of it at school, but hey thats another story. ;) Well if the worst comes to the worst we can always say its permanent constitution drain that can't be restored, then they'll be okay with it, won't they. :p [/QUOTE]
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