The new Use Magic Device: Good or bad?

[Ridley's Cohort]

I am with Stalker0 on this one.

The 10th level Fighter can use a Wand of Fly or Scroll of Fly with 50% effectiveness instead of downing a Potion of Fly at 100% effectiveness and a few more coin. Ooooh. I am quaking in my boots.

No, I'm more worried about a fighter who can now cast Fly on himself. Or Enlarge Person, or Mirror Image, or Silence, or Invisibility, or True Strike. A lot of utility spells can give you a lot of bang for the buck. The net affect is not just that the fighter is more powerful, but also that the caster is now less powerful, because some of their abilities are simply not needed.

Who cares? Half of those things are standard potions. Some that aren't have reasonable substitutes that are available, e.g. Blur for Mirror Image. Should we feel sorry for those 10th level Clerics the day the Fighter gets his hands on a Wand of Silence?

If my warrior PC desperately wants to True Strike or use a Wand of Silence, he can very well take a single level of Sorceror or Cleric. On what basis do conclude that spending 12-20 ranks cross class is a cheesier solution?

The overlooked forest is that any ability that does not work 80+% of the time during combat is not all that attractive once you get up to higher levels. The cost in money or skill points is irrevalent. What matters is the cost in actions.

That is why True Strike magic item is not really abusive, even in the hands of a well-optimized Fighter. Sure he can increase his damage with a big Power Attack boosted hit, but he spent two rounds to accomplish that -- average damage per round is not all that different from the dumb Barbarian who waded in swinging. If the True Strike nets him an advantage it is because of good tactical play, as it should be.

 

[HighlandsBear]

I can't believe people are worried about this. Frankly, it really isn't even that good a skill for bards and rogues unless you have a lot of money in your campaign, and easy scroll and wand access. The offensive spells are all low DC, most likely of a lower level than what a caster in your party will have, and again it gets expensive. It might be seen as a cost saver for utility spells like fly or cure light wnds that you might need to use a potion for without UMD, but is it really worth the skill cost and feats in this case?

Consider the 10th lvl bard given in the above example. Bards are feat poor and really need them to make halfway decent fighters or spellcasters, and yet this bard has spent a fifth of his feats (assuming human here) and 2 out of his 7+int skills to gain this power. For this he gets half price and a third price comparing what potions cost to what scroll and wands cost. And this is totally at the mercy of what the DM allows to be found or purchased. Compare to a real spellcaster getting an item creation feat that drops prices by half and is less DM limited. The UMD user does also get access to a few spells not on the potion list and even more that are 4th lvl+. But this is getting back to the expense problem - that exponential cost is killer. A 5th lvl scroll costs 1125 gp and looking at the DMG a 10th lvl character is expected to spend 2329 gp on expenses over 13 encounters while getting to 11th lvl. So, 3 uses of an up to your level scroll during 4 adventures, not counting any necessary uses of disposable magic you normally would have, and you're already cutting into what's expected to go into your permanent magic equipment. This is from the wealth comparison table in ch 3 btw, and I'm just using it as a form of argument since I doubt anyone adheres to it rigidly, but basically, even with the ability at 100% effectiveness you should be more than balanced by cost.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Right, it's a non-issue. So Fighters can use wands....so what? High level fighters can fly, live with it.

IMC, I designed a PrC basically *around* UMD and non-mages using Wands (Wandslinger), and I felt it actually turned out weak despite having a lot of wand-based upper abilities.

And if you're going to remove UMD from anyone but the spellcasters, you better make sure those spellcasters can't spend ranks in Hide or Move Silently or Bluff, because we all know only rogues can be sneaky, and only bards can be diplomatic, and only fighters can wield longswords...

UMD is the Martial Weapon Proficiency for the Fighters. At a great cost, it lets them get versatility that their allies could have provided 2 levels ago...just likw MWP gives spellcasters a versatility that fighters had from the start at a great cost.

As long as you can have wizards who wield longswords, you should keep fighters who can wield wands.

 

[satori01]

.

My sorcerer decided to take 2 cross class ranks in it so that he could have some fun playing around with items for other classes. That effectively gave him 1 rank. He started off with an 18 charisma, raised it three times by 12 level, gained a +1 inherent bonus from a tome and has a +6 enhancement bonus. That gives him a +9 on his charisma checks - for a total UMD of 10.

Sometimes I think powercreep and abuse are often due to different starting base lines.

So your sorcerer, with the maximal 18 in his primary stat, a +1 tome, and the best charisma item in the game has an easy time making wands work.

By no means am I being judgemental, and from your post you strike me as running a rigorous and strict campaign, but those items and those stats would be a powerhouse character in my campaign.

The DC for UMD seem steep when assuming the default array,(or 25 point buy). I would suggest that if you find that the DCs are to low, and 18s in stats are plentiful,(not that there is anything wrong with that), maybe raising the DCs can fix it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The DC for UMD seem steep when assuming the default array,(or 25 point buy). I would suggest that if you find that the DCs are to low, and 18s in stats are plentiful,(not that there is anything wrong with that), maybe raising the DCs can fix it.

In this particular case it seems self-correcting. Yes, this sorceror has some interesting options outside of combat, but nothing inappropriate for a character of his level and resources. During combat he is giving up the opportunity to savage his opponent with one of his own DC 23+ spells when he resorts to a DC 16 wand.

Wand use is of very limited value beyond defensive magics. If those get out of hand the DM can have low level caster NPCs with Wands of Dispel Magic -- it will do squat against the spellcasters' buffs but will cause heavy attrition for wand/potion buffs.

 

[jgsugden]

By no means am I being judgemental, and from your post you strike me as running a rigorous and strict campaign, but those items and those stats would be a powerhouse character in my campaign.

I call them strong, but reasonable. With the exception of the +6 enhancement to charisma which resulted from a purchase by the PC, everything else (the 18 charisma and finding the +1 charisma book) was a result of random chance. I think it is a fairly safe assumption that PC spellcasters with the opportunity to purchase a +6 prime attribute item will do so - and a 12th level PC is likely able to afford it if the guidelines in the DMG are followed. Thus, I think my sorcerer is slightly on the strong side, but not grossly so ... and that is why the ability to UMD with no real chance of mishaps bothers me for that character. Too much bang for 2 cross class ranks in a skill. UMD is traditionally a tool for thieves/rogues/bards ... it is just too easy to make it useful to a sorcerer now. I'd just prefer to see it go exclusively back into the hands of the classes that it was originallly intended to serve.

 

[Stalker0]

We also have to consider the gold cost here.

When a wizard casts fly on me, that's a cheaply renewable resource... ie sleep

When the fighter burns out that wand of fly, that's going to take bank to get back. The higher up your go, the more expensive things your going to want, and those piddly wands are going to seem... piddly

 

[Belbarrus]

I currently have a Barbarian 4/Rogue 9 character with 6 Charisma. I have maxed out my UMD to 16 ranks, my -2 Charisma mod is canceled out by my +2 Stone of Luck, giving me a total of +16 in UMD. So, my 13th level character needs to roll a 4 or higher to use a wand. What do I most commonly use? First I use a Wand of Heroism (+2 Morale bonus to attack, saves and skill checks for 40 minutes) and I have a Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds and a few Wands of Cure Light Wounds. I help with the post-battle curing.

I also have a Scroll of Stone to Flesh in case the party Wizard is petrified, someone else can restore him. I have a few scrolls of Blur, a Wand of Greater Invisibility and a Wand of FLy. I cannot picture my character "flying" around all of the time, like the Half-Orc Barbarian in the group. I just use the Fly wand to get me past difficult obstacles like cliffs, chasms, lava, etc.

I have a +2 Synergy bonus when using scrolls from having 5 ranks in Decipher Script.

So far, using UMD has not been a problem or considered "unbalancing" at all. My skill is not high enough to make the attempt automatically (yet), so I take a chance in wasting a combat round or two if I want to use a wand or scroll at the beginning of combat and when combats only last 6-8 rounds, wasting 1 or 2 rounds can mean a lot.

Also, while wands do not have this limitation, using scrolls requires that the character have the minimum ability score. For example to use a scroll with Fireball, the user must have at least a 13 Intelligence to use a 3rd level spell. Don't forget this when you have a 10th level Fighter with 8 Int, 8 Wis and 8 Cha trying to use scrolls. They have to use the UMD skill to decipher the scroll, then use the skill to emulate the ability score, then use the skill again to see if they can cast the spell. My Barb/Rogue character has a 14 Intelligence and 12 Wisdom, so I CAN use most low level scrolls without needing to emulate an ability score.

Also, the skill does not say anything about not being able to Take 20, and since there is no penalty for failing to use a Wand (only activating blindly or failing to read a scroll can backfire), I can take 20 on using wands. Of course this is not always a good thing, since using a Wand still has the casting time of the spell and taking 20 with a Wand of Identify takes 20 hours

B

 

[The Freak]

BAAAAAAAAD. See the "fighter vs. barbarian" match. If I can beat Endur's 12th level fighter with a 12th level barbarian with 6 str, something is wrong.

 

[RigaMortus]

You are basing the power of a skill on something the DM has the total ability to control. Ok, so an arcane spell caster can cast divine spells. And a Fighter can heal and buff himself. Well, with what exactly? CMIIW, but doesn't the DM decide what magic items characters have access to? If the party finds a wand of cure light wounds, who is most likely to take it? The Cleric, or the Fighter with +8 to UMD?

It's kind of like the Ranger's Favored Enemy. By level 20 I can have a +10 to damage against giants, which can be a very big boon. But what good is that +10 to damage if the DM never throws giants at the party?

I don't see any problem with UMD that the DM can't control himself.