The Opposite of Envy

Why must the seven virtues be opposites of the seven sins?
Because the whole point of them is to teach people how to grow closer to God, and there are only two directions that matter: you are either growing closer to God or you are not. Being virtuous brings you closer; being sinful takes you further away. Something that moves you sideways in relation to God is irrelevant.
 

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My thought...

Why must the seven virtues be opposites of the seven sins?


I'd certainly agree that things don't have to be what they seem when they're not. But then again things aren't always not what they seem to be when they are. If that means that everything is in the middle of something else then I guess that's true. Then again I guess sometimes it means the very opposite of that. Anywho that all reminds me of an old story...I kinda rephrased it a little.


There's an opposite of everything
But nothing very much,
Does higher execution bring
An Englishman to Dutch,
For one considers meek as strong
Another strong too weak,
The opposite of bland you know
Just might be bittersweet;
So measured as a measure can
You never know what is,
But if you don't you surely won't (want)
The opposite of sin,
For sometimes Virtue is a thing
That stands all by itself,
And sometimes as a Vice it rings
When virtue's been cartelled;
For surely hell is full of Vice
As sorely it must be,
And sometimes Vice becomes a noose
To hang up misery,
Ah, what the heck, I know it not
By verse shall be made true
But sometimes something seems one thing,
Reversal then construed;
And sometimes things are surely not
By opposite defined,
I read that somewhere once I think
And put it in this line,
So think that clever, or that not,
For who am I to say?
Once dark the night is very black -
The next as bright as day...


I wouldn't absolutely swear to it, but I think there's a joke or two in there somewhere.
 


Because the whole point of them is to teach people how to grow closer to God, and there are only two directions that matter: you are either growing closer to God or you are not. Being virtuous brings you closer; being sinful takes you further away. Something that moves you sideways in relation to God is irrelevant.

Who said anything about going sideways?

All I'm saying is that the opposite of a specific sin is not always a virtue and vice versa. Sometimes the opposite of a sin is simply not sinning (which doesn't always equate to being virtuous), and on rare occasions the opposite of a sin can be another sin, depending on how you define the opposite and how you define a sin.

I think you'd be better served simply choosing seven virtues that truly serve your lesson and not worry about slotting them into the arbitrary pigeonholes of being the polar opposites of the seven sins.
 

Who said anything about going sideways?

All I'm saying is that the opposite of a specific sin is not always a virtue and vice versa. Sometimes the opposite of a sin is simply not sinning (which doesn't always equate to being virtuous), and on rare occasions the opposite of a sin can be another sin, depending on how you define the opposite and how you define a sin.

I think you'd be better served simply choosing seven virtues that truly serve your lesson and not worry about slotting them into the arbitrary pigeonholes of being the polar opposites of the seven sins.

I'm with you on this one. I can see why symmetry is aesthetically attractive, but there's no good reason for it beyond that.
 

I think aesthetically symmetry shouldn't be understated. The seven deadly sins are a relatively medieval concept. And symmetry was an important aspect of their particular world view. The world was suppose to have symmetry because that was how nature was suppose to operate. The symmetry really adds to the concept more then detracts. Symmetry is kind of nice in game systems as well as it's easier to conceptualize.

I agree with pretty much everyone.
I think generosity is a good antonym to jealosy and sacrifice a good antonym for
greed. Greed implies an excess of taking so sacrifice would be an excess of giving. Since jealosy is the desire of what other's have, generosity would be the desire to give what you have to others. Those are the closest inversions I can think of though I think others on this thread have proposed others.
 

Who said anything about going sideways?
I guess I didn't understand your point, then. There is a reason why the "7 deadly sins" necessarily imply 7 diametrically opposed virtues in the Judeo-Christian faith.

If you're talking about some other religious framework, then sure, I suppose there don't have to be opposing values and the opposite of one sin might be another sin. But I thought you were asking about the classic "7 deadly sins."
 

I understand the idea of a Virtue having a "moral opposite." That moral opposite being a Vice.


All I'm saying is that the opposite of a specific sin is not always a virtue and vice versa. Sometimes the opposite of a sin is simply not sinning (which doesn't always equate to being virtuous), and on rare occasions the opposite of a sin can be another sin, depending on how you define the opposite and how you define a sin.

I think you'd be better served simply choosing seven virtues that truly serve your lesson and not worry about slotting them into the arbitrary pigeonholes of being the polar opposites of the seven sins.

But I also understand these ideas.

I think that from a spiritual viewpoint it is a very interesting idea. Maybe it's just the mystic in me but I very much like the idea of one sin or vice being used against another. I think of that as being like spiritual guerilla warfare, where unorthodox tactics are used in an unpredictable way.

Now of course in the real world you'd want to employ sin against sin in a way that eventually leads towards the good, towards some benefit, and hopefully towards the development of a virtue. Then one sin, or vice, being employed actively against another would have a beneficial long-term effect.

And I also understand the point that the opposite of a sin might just be to eradicate the sin. That lack of sin does not necessarily equate to virtue. Saints for instance are known for their Virtue, that is they take their sins, seek to eradicate them and then specifically replace their previous Vices with Virtues. (I am not referring to the specific theological idea that all Christians are in-effect Saints, but the idea that certain Christians specifically seek to become exemplars of radical or very powerful Virtues, hence, their Saintliness. That is some Saints go out of their way to sacrificially act the part of Saints. It's the difference between a guy who is a weekend athlete, and a guy who sets out to be a professional athlete. Both are athletes, but the degree of dedication definitely differs, as does usually and practically speaking the real degree of effectiveness.)

For instance, to use a mundane example, a smoker might just stop smoking, which prevents any further damage to his lungs. Which is a step in the right direction for the health of his repository systems. In one sense this is a virtue. Do no harm. But it does not actually improve his lungs, or reverse prior damage. Proper diet, aerobic exercise, other actions of that kind will, or in other words rebuilding and improving on his previous condition, that would be a true Virtue (Capital V), and benefit. Stopping smoking would be to cease doing active harm, and is the kind of virtue one gets from "lack of vice," but improving yourself for real benefit, that is more like a Virtue.

Then again in some instances certain acts may be either a virtue or a vice depending on the degree of application. Eating is a necessary function which is obviously good for you. In that sense it could be considered a virtue. Eating unhealthy things or eating all of the time and to excess (gluttony) is a vice, with obvious negative side-effects. Same act, different manifestations.

That being said then, as far as game situations go, I think there are a number of interesting ideas that the complex interplay between vice and virtue might engender. The idea of evil being used against evil, in an almost guerilla like fashion, to achieve some good. The idea of a plot demanding far more than just "eradication of the bad," but rather the intentional redress of prior harm, or the development of Virtues and benefits to replace vices or harm.

As I tell my children often, it is not enough merely to do away with bad behavior or bad habits, but rather one should replace bad habits with good habits or behavior, and then one is less tempted to engage in bad behavior when that is easy to do. And because people often tend to be creatures of habit it is therefore much easier to practice good behavior when you have habitually practiced Virtues, than it is when you practice bad habits, or no habit at all.

Or put another way, practice Virtue long enough and it becomes your natural habit. Just as if you practice Vice enough (and I mean real vices here, not small indiscretions) and that becomes a natural, or one might also say, unnaturally-natural habit. (Or naturally-unnatural habit, take your pick.)And I think that was what VP was saying. That in the sense of action virtues always have natural opposites, which are the opposite type of action.

Anyways, back to gaming (and personally I like and think gaming should be used not just to practice mental and imaginary skills and capabilities, but real and personal and psychological and spiritual ones as well) you might have a situation where it is far from satisfactory to just "kill the monster," you might need to replace the monster with something of true benefit.

And it might not achieve the ends of an adventure or mission to merely be the one to kill the monster, but maybe the vice of the monster is somehow transferred to the character, who then must also defeat the Vice and somehow conquer it with a Virtue. That is you kill the monster and his vices are transferred to you as a sort of "curse" which you then must break or destroy with a blessing, benefit, or virtue. You don't just kill the disease, but you effect a truly counter-acting cure.

Of course there is always the old "one monster fights another" scenario. In that respect I can see a case where a monster might even want to change, convert, or be cured of his "monstrousness" and is therefore asked to asset in the destruction of another, even worse monster as a sort of penance or proof of his sincerity and purpose.

Anywho I can see any number of ways that Virtues and Vices might be played out in interesting and even unorthodox ways in a game or story. But for now I gotta hit the hay. See ya.
 

I'm with you on this one. I can see why symmetry is aesthetically attractive, but there's no good reason for it beyond that.

I think aesthetically symmetry shouldn't be understated. The seven deadly sins are a relatively medieval concept. And symmetry was an important aspect of their particular world view. The world was suppose to have symmetry because that was how nature was suppose to operate. The symmetry really adds to the concept more then detracts. Symmetry is kind of nice in game systems as well as it's easier to conceptualize.

And that's certainly a valid reason to keep it... If, however, the aesthetics of that symmetry serve no purpose, then it that symmetry should be abandoned.

I guess I didn't understand your point, then. There is a reason why the "7 deadly sins" necessarily imply 7 diametrically opposed virtues in the Judeo-Christian faith.

If you're talking about some other religious framework, then sure, I suppose there don't have to be opposing values and the opposite of one sin might be another sin. But I thought you were asking about the classic "7 deadly sins."

I was talking about the classic seven deadly sins.

Jack7 gets right to the point of my argument. Consider the Deadly Sin of Lust, for example...

Most would consider the opposite virtue as celibacy or chastity. But neither of those are, really. They are both simply the absence (or a flat denial) of Lust, and further more go against God's injunction to "be fruitful and multiply". from that point of view, they come awfully close to being sins themselves.

A more appropriate counter to Lust would be Fidelity, which would embody not only the absence of simple animal desires, but also a more appropriate ideal of love and the virtue of being perfectly loyal in thought and deed to the spouse to which you've promised yourself. On top of that, it can include being loyal, faithful and devoted in all aspects of one's life, not just one's husband or wife, and so goes above and beyond being just in opposition to Lust.
 

Most would consider the opposite virtue as celibacy or chastity. But neither of those are, really.

That depends on how you define the terms. Celibacy is simply the state of not being married. In and of itself, it isn't virtuous or vicious. Everyone is born celibate and most stay that way for years.

Chastity is not abstinence. It is sexual behavior rightly ordered according to one's station in life. For celibate persons within, say, Catholicism, this means abstinence from sexual activity. For uncelibate persons (read, those who are married), it means sexual activity occurs within the confines of one's marriage.

With these definitions in hand, chastity is clearly the opposite of lust, and is certainly not "against God's injunction to 'be fruitful and multiply'."

What's more, the virtue of chastity necessarily includes fidelity while at the same time does not exhaust all that fidelity implies. A vowed state of celibacy within this celibacy-chastity context then becomes a sacrifice, which also necessarily includes fidelity.
 
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