The Orville- My One Big Issue

[Dannyalcatraz]

At time that "Plato's Stepchildren" first aired I was living in an area of Toronto, in which my school picture looked like "children of the United Nations." The only other white kid in my class had arrived in Canada after his family had escaped from Czechoslovakia in a stolen single-engined plane. Anecdotally speaking, of course, it was a big deal.

And that’s in Toronto!

Imagine what that looked like to Americans seeing it just months after MLK’s assassination and similar televised exemplars of white supremacy on the news.

 

[Umbran]

But I'm not? That was just about your use of Plato's Closet, which is often mis-remembered as being controversial, when it wasn't. It was overwhelmingly positively received.

It is "Plato's Stepchildren". And, I didn't put it forth as being "controversial", really. I put it forth as a thing some parents of the day would not find suitable for children. Because the ultimate question here is exactly how much of a family show TOS was, and how much more or less of a family show The Orville is, right?

I used it as an example because claims that nobody cared would not seem plausible, given the events of the day. MLK had been shot months before, for having the audacity of saying that African Americans should have their rights protected. You really want me to think that, in places like the deep south, everyone was just hunky-dory with it? Really? The Detroit riots in 1967, the DC riots in 1968... meant that race relations were fine?!? If everyone in the nation were so cool with it... why did we need a Civil Rights Movement at all?

Will you argue next that Nichelle Nichols being on the bridge at all... wasn't notable for media of the day?

I accept that the studio didn't receive a whole lot of negative mail on it. But, that doesn't mean parents thought it was okay for kids. I mean, did you write a letter to the makers of The Orville? No? Well, then your discomfiture would not be recorded anywhere but here, which for all intents and purposes means it is lost to history. Would parents in the deep south in 1968 write to the studio, or just decide that the show was not fit for their kids and go about their lives?

There *were* shows in the day that were generally acceptable as family viewing. I've named several. And TOS Trek is more challenging than they were. That's all I am saying, in the end - Trek never was a show any family could sit down with an 8-year old and be confident that the content would be suitable.

But I do think that we might be so inured, that we don't notice that this was a little more than the usual Orville episode.

When Dr Finn is not-entirely-consensually intimate with a blob of goo, the show also discusses the sexual performance of an android, and takes on forced gender assignment surgery... this was somehow strange? I wonder if you are watching the same show I am watching.

In addition, to be inured to a thing, it must be common, right? So, if we are inured to it... it isn't unusual. I am not sure how this is helping your case at all.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Deset Gled]

Not to belabor this point, but do you have kids? ... But most people with families tend to think of family viewing as something that be can done comfortably with the parents and the 10+ kids in the house.

And in this case, I can say that the particular episode was noticeably more mature than a standard Orville episode. But, that's subjective, isn't it.

I have kids, and I think that you're defining "family viewing" as matching your family, not the majority.

The first episode of Orville includes the line "I let my cousin shoot a porno in the back of the shuttle in exchange for some pills". I consider "Primal Urges" to be roughly on par with that line, or the episode "Cupid's Dagger".

 

[Janx]

It is "Plato's Stepchildren". And, I didn't put it forth as being "controversial", really. I put it forth as a thing some parents of the day would not find suitable for children. Because the ultimate question here is exactly how much of a family show TOS was, and how much more or less of a family show The Orville is, right?

I used it as an example because claims that nobody cared would not seem plausible, given the events of the day. MLK had been shot months before, for having the audacity of saying that African Americans should have their rights protected. You really want me to think that, in places like the deep south, everyone was just hunky-dory with it? Really? The Detroit riots in 1967, the DC riots in 1968... meant that race relations were fine?!? If everyone in the nation were so cool with it... why did we need a Civil Rights Movement at all?

Will you argue next that Nichelle Nichols being on the bridge at all... wasn't notable for media of the day?

I accept that the studio didn't receive a whole lot of negative mail on it. But, that doesn't mean parents thought it was okay for kids. I mean, did you write a letter to the makers of The Orville? No? Well, then your discomfiture would not be recorded anywhere but here, which for all intents and purposes means it is lost to history. Would parents in the deep south in 1968 write to the studio, or just decide that the show was not fit for their kids and go about their lives?
..snip...

In support of Umbran's point, as I heard it, there was quite a stink raised about that episode in the south. It was like television was smuggling subversive material into their homes.

I imagine nowadays all that seems trivial, because was we all got the memo on not being racist bigots and stuff. But that episiode, it just wasn't done. Until they did it.

I haven't seen the latest Orville, but sounds like they found something to shock and make a point about. Good for them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Will you argue next that Nichelle Nichols being on the bridge at all... wasn't notable for media of the day?

...as was the fact she had a relatively high place in the command structure of the ship.

And I made the point that this isn't a great example, because that particular episode wasn't controversial in a bad way; in fact, it was incredibly well-liked at the time.

Not controversial? Revise history much? Loving had just declared interracial marriages were legal about a year before. People were still getting shunned and assaulted for those relationships. Into that cruised this episode:

A particularly good example of this network pushback came during the production of the 1968 Star Trek episode “Plato’s Stepchildren”. In this episode, Star Trek made racial history with what is often considered the first interracial kiss in American television history between Lieutenant Uhura and Captain Kirk. While there are several other viable candidates for first interracial kiss on television from various countries, the kiss in the season three episode “Plato’s Stepchildren” was radical for its time, and it almost didn’t air.

Indeed, in a 2012 interview, Nichols revealed that tensions were very high. First off, while they were shooting, William Shatner kissed her, and after the shot, the director came up to ask Shatner just what he thought he was doing, and then started furiously whispering with each other. Soon after, NBC sent over officials to discuss the scene, which led to Roddenberry asking directors to shoot the scene over, one shot with the kiss and one without.

Public furor was minimal:

In fact, there were hardly any bad reviews in the papers, with maybe the worst being from Variety the day after the episode aired: “Late in the running of a rather bad show, William Shatner kisses Nichelle Nichols. Kisses aren’t new to tv, but bussing of a Negro doll by a white man is” (O’Boogie).

But the key to the silence is in the critique: Star Trek’s ratings were poor. This episode was in the third and final season of a show that wasn’t being watched by anyone but sci-fi fans- demographically more progressive than the general population. The feedback NBC was largely- but not completely- positive

 

[Ryujin]

In support of Umbran's point, as I heard it, there was quite a stink raised about that episode in the south. It was like television was smuggling subversive material into their homes.

I imagine nowadays all that seems trivial, because was we all got the memo on not being racist bigots and stuff. But that episiode, it just wasn't done. Until they did it.

I haven't seen the latest Orville, but sounds like they found something to shock and make a point about. Good for them.

I don't specifically remember it in the news from back then, as I was more interested in following the war in Vietnam, but in my brief research I kept coming across mentions that several TV stations in the American South refused to air that particular episode.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Do you have a source for that? AFAIK, despite a concern that it would be an issue in the South, there was no blowback and it was the episode that received the most positive feedback in the series’ run.

But I love to learn new things. Maybe the apocryphal history is true.

Personally, I can find several references to this on IMDB, documentary blurbs, and other similar sources, but none cite actual sources, so it COULD be apocryphal. If it did happen, it was probably those stations situated in the more rural/conservative areas.

I’d be surprised if it EVER aired in Vidor, Tx., for instance...

 

[Ryujin]

Do you have a source for that? AFAIK, despite a concern that it would be an issue in the South, there was no blowback and it was the episode that received the most positive feedback in the series’ run.

But I love to learn new things. Maybe the apocryphal history is true.

IMDB was one place where I found the statement.

"Contrary to popular belief..."

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708443/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv