The Perfect Number

[LordGraz'zt]

One of the problems with older editions is that a lot of classes (like the fighter) did not have any options in each round of combat - it was basically "I swing with my sword/axe/hammer" and that was it.

4E "fixed" this by giving each class a number of options each round through at-wills, encounters and dailies.

My issue with 4E (even though it is my favorite edition) is that players have too many options - especially as you move to Paragon and beyond.

Between the powers, paragon path abilities and magic items - each player has 12+ different options each round of combat.

As my thoughts turn to D&D Next something that I keep asking myself - what is the perfect number of options?

For me personally, older editions had too few options while 4E has gone too far the other way - from my discussions that seems to be a popular opinion but we may be wrong.

Obviously this number will be different for different players - some people like simple characters, other like to be a bit more complicated - but I wonder if there is some general ballpark number that we can agree on that feels right.

The second conversation which falls out of this is then how do you balance this number from Level 1 to Level 20/30.

What do you think is the perfect number of combat options?

 

[LostSoul]

Tactical infinity.

I believe that, in order to achieve "tactical infinity", you need to drop the abstraction from D&D combat.

I doubt that will happen.

 

[LordGraz'zt]

Infinity options?

I probably should have made it more clear - obviously you want the players to be able to do anything they want - swing from a chandelier, dive out the window etc etc.

I am purely talking about the number of "powers" - regardless of the system there has to be a finite number of powers available to the player.

I am curious as to what number people think that might be.

 

[Minigiant]

I found leves 1-5 4E classic characters to be perfect.

6-8 options is about the memory limit.

At level 1 in 4E PC has 2 at-wills, 1 encounters, 1 daily, and a racial.
At level 5 in 4E PC has 2 at-wills, 2 encounters, 2 dailies, and a racial.

So outside of gimmick characters, characters should 6-8 options.

A starting wizard should have 4 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, and whatever the theme gives (an at-will, another spell slot, a recharging energy blast, order to your familiar or undead cohort)

A starting fighter gets "I attack", "I defend", "I all-out attack", "I defend totally", "I knock 'em down/push 'em back/pull 'em close", and "Charge!"

The starting rogue has Attack, Sneak attack, Poison Attack, Sand in your eye, Caltrops in your foot, Shin kick, and Slit your Throat from Behind.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Imagine there are "things" characters can do: exploits, deeds, tricks, maneuvers, spells, blessings etc. and that this is what we are talking about limiting; the pre-programmed "actions". There are some basic things you want to always have as options: movement and a basic form of attack come to mind. Maybe having three significant things on top of this is enough to provide some form of variety, but I would hazard to guess that most people are not going to find that suitable; most finding such a small number too limiting. And this will most likely be the case, whatever the number that you choose.

However, what I think would be interesting is having some form of mechanic such that your extra options (be it three or more) change from the start of a combat to its conclusion. Imagine you build up combat points by performing or doing certain things in combat, and that by expending these combat points you can perform different (and perhaps more powerful options). I think this would add dynamism to combat while keeping the number of power options as limited as possible.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[LordGraz'zt]

However, what I think would be interesting is having some form of mechanic such that your extra options (be it three or more) change from the start of a combat to its conclusion. Imagine you build up combat points by performing or doing certain things in combat, and that by expending these combat points you can perform different (and perhaps more powerful options). I think this would add dynamism to combat while keeping the number of power options as limited as possible.

Any system like this would make it combat even more complicated plus it would mean another thing to track.

I found leves 1-5 4E classic characters to be perfect.

6-8 options is about the memory limit.

At level 1 in 4E PC has 2 at-wills, 1 encounters, 1 daily, and a racial.
At level 5 in 4E PC has 2 at-wills, 2 encounters, 2 dailies, and a racial.

So outside of gimmick characters, characters should 6-8 options.

Thank you this is the sort of response I was looking for.

The next part is how do you scale this around level?

Do you allow players to have more options at higher levels? Or do you keep it at around this "sweet spot" and players just switch out for more powerful abilities/maneuvers/spells tricks?

 

[Minigiant]

Imagine there are "things" characters can do: exploits, deeds, tricks, maneuvers, spells, blessings etc. and that this is what we are talking about limiting; the pre-programmed "actions". There are some basic things you want to always have as options: movement and a basic form of attack come to mind. Maybe having three significant things on top of this is enough to provide some form of variety, but I would hazard to guess that most people are not going to find that suitable; most finding such a small number too limiting. And this will most likely be the case, whatever the number that you choose.

However, what I think would be interesting is having some form of mechanic such that your extra options (be it three or more) change from the start of a combat to its conclusion. Imagine you build up combat points by performing or doing certain things in combat, and that by expending these combat points you can perform different (and perhaps more powerful options). I think this would add dynamism to combat while keeping the number of power options as limited as possible.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Spiral Arrow
Cannon Spike
CLK CLP CLK Spiral Arrow
CMK Spin Drive Smasher?

Any system like this would make it combat even more complicated plus it would mean another thing to track.

Thank you this is the sort of response I was looking for.

The next part is how do you scale this around level?

Do you allow players to have more options at higher levels? Or do you keep it at around this "sweet spot" and players just switch out for more powerful abilities/maneuvers/spells tricks?

Some classes gain more options and old options are phased out due to being rendered obsolete.
Other classes just increase the usability of their current options as they level.
And still other gain only a few more options.

 

[ren1999]

What do you think is the perfect number of combat options?

How many total spells can a wizard learn by 30th level?

A fighter should learn just as many combat options/feats/powers/etc..

How about a character can learn 1 spell or feat or skill per level regardless of intelligence? The character can collect them all.

Here is a list of combat "options", I've been working on. You could probably guess what they do from the name.

Weapon Proficiency (Weapon), Feint Attack, Disarm Weapon, Off-Hand Weapon, Windmill Attack, Fumble Foe, Precise Attack, Shield Bash, Pommel Pound, Punch Foe, Kick Foe, Grab Foe, Trip Foe, Blind Foe, Foot Work, Fleet Speed, Shift Foe, Toughness Training, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Improve Initiative, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Armor Proficiency (Armor), Parry Defense, Dodge Defense, Close Quarters, Keep Distance, Cape Shield

 

[Hautamaki]

As said above, psychologically speaking humans can best handle around 7 items at a time. However of those 7 items, from my personal experience in game terms it's best if at least 4 of them are immediately disqualifiable as clearly non-optimal, ideally leaving you with 2 or 3 viable and thus interesting choices per combat round.

 

[steeldragons]

It is a good question/interesting topic.

I feel, however, as with just about everything in D&D there is no "right" answer. There is no "perfect" number. It is a completely player-by-player, or at least group-by-group, expectation of what makes the "best/most fun" game for them.

For myself, I very much want the game to return to growing/increasing/developing character base. Not "superhero" out of the gate...not necessarily "zero-to-hero" either as that "zero" phase gets really tiring/boring rather quickly.

For my own musing on the subject...and in an attempt to keep the "balance-wolves" at bay, I think something along the lines of 3 works for a first level character.

That is, 3 "special/individual" class abilities that the players may choose as their own at character creation to start with from a list of,say, 10 options. In addition to the, say, 2 or 3 "class abilities" that all characters of a particular class would have.

That way, in theory anyway, your 1st level party with 3 fighters in it will/can have 3 distinctive characters...all of whom are Fighters with some of the same tricks and some that are their own.

Then, as the PC increases in level, they get...I dunno...1 new trick of their own selection every other level...or every 3rd. I don't like the idea of gaining a new "feat" ("power" or whatever it would be termed) every level. Give the PCs a level, at least, to work with what they've got. Master it. Get creative with its use. Then add/sprinkle in some more/something new.

I really like the "advanced theme" choice coming in at 6th level, as has been mentioned hereabouts. That seems like a good spread. Give the PCs 5 levels with their existing Themes and the tricks thereof before allowing them new ones or improving their old ones.

I think "Class Ability" type tricks/feats/powers should work the same way. Maybe not every 5 levels...but every 3, I think, sounds fair.

So, for example and completely hypothetical: a 1st level Thief/Rogue starts with Sneak Attack and Stealth. All rouges get that. Then can pick 3 other things of the list of 10 to start with.

So you might have a party with a "thief/pickpocket" rogue, a "street thug/informant" type rogue, and/or a "extra-stabby/ranged skirmisher" type rogue. At 3rd level, they can pick another from the list of 10...at 5th another. Then at 6th it's time for the "advanced theme."...and so on and so forth. Maybe also at 6th...or 7th, some additional "gimme/freebie" class ability for all rogues and another choice.

By, say, 10th level, I would expect the PC to have an array of about as many "special/class abilities and theme feats" as they have levels...maybe one or two more.

--SD