D&D 5E The Perils of Dump Stats

[James Gasik]

Back in PF1 I remember a PFS session where a kid brought a Monk with dumped CON. Was one-shotted in the very first encounter. Very entertaining.

I had a guy do that in a Pathfinder game! He showed up with an 8 Con Ninja. "It's ok, because I'll be invisible so nobody can hit me."

His first death came when he found himself in the area effect of a drake's breath weapon that required a Fort save for half damage (so his Evasion was useless).

Yes, he was invisible at the time.

 

[jgsugden]

One of my sorcerers has amassed a pretty large kill list through the use of Phantasmal Force and other illusions. There are a lot of monsters with low intelligence out there and a creative player, the right environments and a DM that is not afraid to let things go as they fall ... well, you can get enemies to leap off cliffs, into lava, into cages, etc...

As a DM, I also tend to have spellcasters select spells intelligently (if that makes sense for the spellcaster) and that includes being able to target a weakness of a PC. Having low strength, dexterity and intelligence (to a degree) is often something you can observe, so the enemies will often be prepared with the right spell for the right targets. A nice cliff can be a great tool when you are using Thunderwave, Phantasmal Force, or Grasping Vine.

 

[Melfast]

Having ability score draining monsters can be really scary for a low level party. We had a TPK to shadows once upon a time. I think they are fair though if the players have a chance to learn about them. I strongly believe players need to spend more time preparing for their adventures. They seem to assume the DM will tell them everything they need to know. Me, I figure you need to do research to learn about possible enemies, the possibility of weird creatures, the name of the last lord of the castle, etc. Because it is likely to matter in the adventure. Didn't take time to research the family who owned the manor? Too bad that was a clue to finishing a puzzle or dealing with a ghost. Some players don't like that style of game, of course. So, the table matters, too. Nevertheless, that is what I encourage as part of player agency, and it lets the characters who invest in History, Religion, Investigation, etc. get the benefit of their investment.

 

[Li Shenron]

While I wouldn't wish death to be the price to pay, I think it's a good thing that dumping stats have a cost. Dumping stats means boosting other stats, it is a strategic choice alternative to balancing all stats, so a good game makes it matter. I still don't think D&D is good enough though, because if you had dumped Con or Dex, you would have statistically died many times before.

 

[Li Shenron]

On the separate topic of stat-draining monster, I've said many times that this has been a missed opportunity for 5e.

The rules make it so much easier to track ability scores temporary changes, compared to older editions. There is no real need to recalculate all total modifiers, when the core rule is that almost every end modifier is just the sum of two: your ability score mod + proficiency bonus. Both the designers and the gaming community failed at seeing this opportunity, and remained anchored to previous editions habits of assuming you need to precaclulate 50 or so different totals on your character sheet, and then rejected the concept of ability score damage because of how annoying it was in previous editions, but this is short-sightedness.

The other reason for rejection is that ability damage can trigger a death spiral. That is indeed a reasonable concern, and a DM should learn how their players feel about such dynamic, because to some players it is an exciting danger as much as to others it can be very uncomfortable and ruin the fun. Not everyone likes skydiving, so to speak...

 

[Micah Sweet]

In a game this week I had my PC die and another player's die from the Vargouille due to both of us have CHA 9 scores. We failed our saves during the suprise round, the Vargouilles had initiative, and each of the two kissed one of the PCs.

Even though we were 5th level, we had no caster who could cast Remove Curse, and the villiage priest didn't have it. It was night time, and the sun wasn't coming soon enough to help us. The priest didn't have time to take a long rest to help us since we lost 1 point of CHA each hour, 7 hours later we both had CHA 2, died, and our heads deteched to become Vargouilles.

I've known PCs with STR dumps to fear Shadows since that can kill, but it's has never happened.

Have any of you had a PC die because of the dumped stat?

A PC died (and several others came quite close) in a game I ran when they faced a group of shadows head on, only to realize virtually the entire party dumped Strength. Quite the shock.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Basically your lowest stat is technically a "dump stat" to some degree. I have a Wizard whose lowest number is a 12 Charisma- I'm not looking forward to ever having to make a Charisma save!

It's all relative. My personal sensibilities have a hard time accepting a 12 as a "dump stat". To me if your lowest stat is a +1 you're a very lucky character!

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is more “the enemy bypassed normal defenses and you didn’t have the specific countermeasures.”

Stat-draining effects are like that; if you didn’t know you would need it you probably wouldn’t have prepared remove curse (although now I’m thinking that keeping a scroll of it around is probably a good idea)

Yeah. I would think of that as a learning experience.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

This is something my characters are about to face themselves. They have entered a pocket dimension that was created from the planar scars that leak out energies from the Shadowfell, Carceri, the Abyss, and the Elemental Chaos (ancient scars from the Dawn Wars that never fully healed). They have been given ample warning that this place had creatures that can drain ability scores, reduce max up, reduce AC, and even destroy lower level magic items if not careful, on top of madness effects and other debuffs like exhaustion and others. Basically, this place is very inhospitable to normal life.

Luckily the players are very adept at supporting each other’s weak points and have several means of healing and buffing themselves. They also have a few allies they are traveling with that have abilities that can help reduce the dangers a bit. However, this will be a very deadly place that they need to be smart about traversing. They are very excited about this though.

 

[GMMichael]

Now that races (or apparently, anyone) don't have flaws, and 3d6 for an ability score is way old news - there are no dump stats.

I haven't lost a PC to drain (yet), but I would strongly petition to keep the character as the undead version after death.