The price of things

[MerricB]

First off, a quick question. In 3E, I remember there were some details re: how much a caster would charge to cast a spell for the party, if they didn't have anyone who could do it themselves. Does 4E have similar guidelines for rituals? Or do you think just charging the price of a scroll is fine?

Secondly, I received this email from a player yesterday, after they finished selling off all the phat lewt they managed to drag out of the dungeon they cleared at Rivenroar.

Allow them to run the store. They hire a commoner.

The very first time they get back from an adventure, they find that the commoner has pocketed all the money from the sales and gone on a long voyage.

The second time, after finding a more trustworthy commoner, they find that he's been killed by rival adventurers and the rivals have taken all their stuff. Now, his wife wants compensation from the party for her loss...

The third time, they find the local ruler has "requisitioned" their gear to fight a war and has given them a measly 10% of its worth in exchange.

Not forgetting the taxes (perhaps as much as 50% of the sale value), the ongoing cost of keeping the store (1 gp per day?) and the fact that no-one actually wants to buy that +3 flaming longsword because they can't afford it...

Who in Rivenroar has 1,000 gp, anyway?

Honestly, being a magic merchant is a major undertaking: needing guards, a source of magic items, and customers. In the real world, a shopkeeper might sell an item for 100% of its cost, but I can assure you the profits aren't that 100%... he's lucky to get 20% back after salaries, taxes, and ongoing costs (like renting the shop).

Cheers!

 

[Hereticus]

Our group has decided that all rituals that the group decides it wants would be paid for with group treasure, and any the material costs of all rituals cast for the good of the group will come from group funds. The ritual caster with the highest skill bonus would hold onto the rituals they can cast best.

A good example of this was when we were stuck all winter in a keep buried by snow without food or firewood. We drained group funds to cast Hero's Feast and Endure Elements for a few months.

 

[boolean]

A good example of this was when we were stuck all winter in a keep buried by snow without food or firewood. We drained group funds to cast Hero's Feast and Endure Elements for a few months.

The really fun part of that type of situation is when somebody has the Disenchant ritual. You know the circumstances are dire when you have to start eating the +1 weapons.

 

[Rechan]

I'm having a different problem. I've found that the cash, after the party split, is so low that players can't buy anything of appropriate level.

The party just hit 4th level. One PC wants to buy a 4th level magical item. He only has 183 gp to his name, and a typical 4th level magical item is 860. By the time he can afford it, it'll be obsolete for his level.

 

[Hereticus]

Magic Item Store:
I would ask your players if they want to play D&D: The Economic Simulation or some variant of D&D where the economy matters

Is that the style of game you're running? Is that the style you want to run? Is that the style they want?

That kind of response would get me to tell my players that I don't want to roleplay being shopkeepers. We'd then have a frank discussion about expectations in our game.

That said, your game may be different. I would hesitate to introduce any sort of mechanics like you mention without first talking to the player, and getting at why they have problems with the magic item pricing.

My 12th level wizard has magic items that are worth less than the rest of the party, but I've been buying up all the unwanted magic items at the 20% price and squirrelling them away. My goal is to set up shop and sell them during downtime.

Perhaps I will profit from them... perhaps I will have my shop attacked and lose them.

The high mark-up is justified by the cost of the secure structure I must build, security I must hire, and bribes I pay to avoid taxes.

No, I do not want to role play shop keeper while the group is sitting around idly. But during down-time it can be an interesting one-on-one diversion with the DM.

 

[Hereticus]

The really fun part of that type of situation is when somebody has the Disenchant ritual. You know the circumstances are dire when you have to start eating the +1 weapons.

We had eight characters including an NPC. The daily cost of Hero's Feast was 2x35 gold, and Endure Elements was 2x20 gold. That was 110 gold per day. Over a two month period that cost us 6,600 gold.

We were poor at the time, and had only enough for one more month.

 

[malraux]

I'm having a different problem. I've found that the cash, after the party split, is so low that players can't buy anything of appropriate level.

The party just hit 4th level. One PC wants to buy a 4th level magical item. He only has 183 gp to his name, and a typical 4th level magical item is 860. By the time he can afford it, it'll be obsolete for his level.

After seeing the wealth divided automatically in the groups I've played in, I really think the best option for wealth is to keep it as a party pool and then use it to purchase a needed item for each character.

 

[Dedekind]

If you want to really do it (and others suggest not to), here are numbers you could maybe adjust.

Considering an item is full price, I would subtract 50% for overhead.

A magic item shop would require a significant amount of up front capital. Probably 20% of the value of all items you expect them to acquire and sell in the location they bought it. (Keeping in mind that selling epic items in Homlet is not possible.) Of course, getting this amount of cash together isn't easy and would take many levels of adventuring.

This yields them an extra 10% (100-50 overheard - 20 upfront), presuming they can get the capital together to do it. Once they invest the capital, they will make 50% on an item (20% normal + 20% payback on capital + 10% profit).

This could certainly fit in as roleplaying thing (the guy's character is greedy and thinks the market for magic items is where the money is at). However, they may be underpowered if they aren't spending any money for X levels.

On the other hand, I set up a magic item "broker" in one campaign and he would get them between 40 and 80% of face value after they did him several favors (adventures). (Note that this was 3E where the sale value was half. Using a broker could result in a loss.)

 

[Ed_Laprade]

I agree that selling for 20% is ridiculously low, but no one in their right mind would think that they could get full sale price. In the real world, if you won a brand new MP3 player that retailed in the stores for $100, you probably wouldn't be able to get a full $100 for it trying to sell it yourself, even if it was still new-in-box. You would probably be doing pretty well to sell it for $75-$80. If instead it was a "good as new" mp3 player that you took from the body of some guy who tried to mug you one night, you would probably be lucky to get $50 for it, and would probably more likely only get $25 for it.

That's all quite true, of course, as anyone who's worked in retail knows. (I have.) But if no one in the group has it needs to be explained to them, and the books don't bother. And, equally of course, they may well decide to schlep around with all the magic items they find, until they find a buyer for the things they don't want. ("Oh, say, Lord Patron. Before we go clean out the local dungeon for you, would you be interested in...") After all, the game (as played by many) is Kill the Monsters and Take Their Stuff. Why bother taking their stuff if you're not going to get what its worth? It might start looking as though killing shopkeepers and taking their stuff might be more profitable for less danger! (Until someone sends an army, or high level NPCs, after them.)

 

[MrMyth]

Let them know that they could set up a store, but that it wouldn't be an excellent proposition - there just isn't enough demand for them to set up shop and immediately sell all their items. That's why the 'magic peddler' is there - he buys up items cheap from one group of adventurer's, and then travels until he finds another group in need of those items. It could be months or years before they actually see a turnaround on the items!

So, just setting up a shop isn't what lets them go from 20% sale price to 100% sale price. What they need to do instead is:

1) Find a customer willing to buy magic items, who:
2) Specifically is interested in the items they have for sale.

If they want to pursue doing that, I would set it up as its own little quest, perhaps driven by a skill challenge or two. Maybe even with a combat thrown in! (As the PCs ask around to find a buyer, some bandits catch wind of the deal, and try to snag the loot in transition.)

And then at the end, they get to sell their items for extra - possibly for 100% (if they fully succeeded), possibly for less, but still significantly more than the usual turnaround. But they've earned xp from the quest, the challenges, and the fight - the gold they get from the transaction isn't them cheating the system, it is balanced as an appropriate reward for the quest they've undergone and the obstacles that were part of it!

It provides a nice framework to allow them to occasional not feel like an items profit has been wasted, while being enough of an undertaking to not be something they can do simply at will. And if they do spend all their time focused on finding buyers, it is easy to simply decide that there are some items no one is interested in, or that there is no easy buyer for.