D&D 5E "The problem with 5e" is the best feature - advantage

[Oofta]

Back in 3.5 days I used to have a worksheet that I put into a paper protector. It had standard buffs and what-not as rows and then enough columns for all my attacks (2 weapon fighter). So I'm quite familiar with the pile o'modifiers issue.

I'm just not sure it's an issue that can be fixed by anything better than advantage/disadvantage. Like a lot of D&D it's kind of brilliant, kind of crap but generally better than the alternative.

Just my 2 coppers, carry on.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

The only problem we've had with advantage is with flanking rules. Not going there again.

 

[tetrasodium]

The only problem we've had with advantage is with flanking rules. Not going there again.

Flanking benefits without any sort of cost to getting flanking positioning is an unconscionable failure by design that almost requires bad faith authoring on the part of someone who didn't like the tactical combat stuff being assumed to understand how missing the mark by such an astounding degree was possible.

A benefit as major as advantage for it makes the questionable choice even worse

 

[DND_Reborn]

So... how do we fix this?

Simple: allow sources of advantage to stack. We do. We have no limit to the number of d20s you can roll if you have additional sources of advantage (or disadvantage). We treat them as +/- d20s, so three sources of advantage and one source of disadvantage nets two sources of advantage, or 3d20's rolled.

Because additional d20s has decreasing returns per additional die, there comes a point, where although it is always better mechanically, it just isn't worth the trouble to gain yet another source of advantage.

Am I on to something?

IMO, unfortunately, no, but for a reason other than you might think:

First, Advantage is not a 2nd d20 roll. It's a +1d6 bonus. This is roughly the same as advantage (advantage is equivalent to +5 if you have 50% chance of hitting. If your chances are very low or very high, the impact is less. So +1d6 is roughly equivalent).

Second advantages stack - you could get more than a d6. But for things not to get completely crazy, (good or bad: disadvantage stacks too!), the extra D6 don't add, it's a "take the highest roll". So if you have advantage from 3 sources, one source of disadvantage, roll the 1d6 twice, take the best, and add this to your 1d20 roll. So if you have a lot of advantages, the bonus will approach +6 - so engaging with the world to make a fight go easier on you and harder on the enemy is worth doing.

Your idea increases the ceiling (and floor) for the roll by up to 6, advantage as it is in 5E doesn't increase the ceiling (or floor).

Assuming no other modifiers, I can have 100 sources of stackable advantage in 5E and because I am only rolling d20s, I can get higher than a 20. With your idea, after enough sources of stackable advantage and the +6 modifier boosts the minimum result to 7 and the maximum to 26. Personally, numbers can already get too high IMO so this is not a feature I would want.

If you want your floor/ceiling for the total result raised, I think the principle works fine, but as I said that wouldn't be a design goal for me. Nothing wrong with it at all, just not to my taste. If you like it (which I assume you do) I think your idea is fine, otherwise.

 

[Don Durito]

See Boons/Banes Shadow of a Demon Lord for an implementation that allow you to do a bit more.

 

[Weiley31]

Eh I'm perfectly fine with Adv/Dis as is. No system is perfect, least of all 5E for sure.

 

[Shiroiken]

You mention a lot of things "wrong" with 5E that have nothing to do with your actual point, so I'm going to ignore everything except that.

But that video made me realize what the issue is - it's advantage! Once you have advantage, getting more help doesn't matter. (I know that there are other bonuses you can get, but they are rare).

You don't need to find the higher grounds. You don't need to flank the giant. Just get advantage by doing one thing and you're good. And a lot of classes have ways to easily give themselves or others advantage. So you don't need to engage with the world as much! Just show up, and get ready to rumble!

First of all, I'm not a big fan of terrain providing advantage. Not because I don't like it, but because advantage isn't always the best explanation. In the case of higher ground, I increase the short range of ranged attacks by 5% per 10 ft (max +50%), representing the extended time before the weapon hits the ground. If you're only 5 ft higher, such as on a ledge, I'd give you 1/2 cover against a small creature and 3/4 cover against a tiny creature (unless they have a climb speed) because they have a harder time hitting anything vital. Terrain can grant benefits, but most of it's going to be defensive (i.e. cover), not offensive (although being an a higher elevations against a huge creature might grant advantage to attack due to the ability to hit more vital areas).

Oh, and never use the flank rules. They don't work well at all, and more often than not you simply create a "flank chain," where everyone is lined up to get advantage on attack.

So... how do we fix this?

Assuming you want to keep things on the simple side, there are two methods which are very similar. First of all, don't limit the amount of advantage and disadvantage you can have. If you have advantage from an ability, but have disadvantage because of long range, you can still gain advantage another way (such as from higher ground). This means that instead of having neither (per RAW), you still have advantage. Gaining advantage from two sources is then worthwhile. If you want to use this method, you should probably also consider giving disadvantage for the various terrain interaction to balance things out.

Alternately, as others have mentioned don't limit it to 2d20, but allow an endless number of d20s, keeping only one. This still keeps bounded accuracy, and allows the additional advantages to be beneficial. While this may sound insane, remember that each additional d20 is a diminished return, as the likelihood of that d20 being the one that matters is lower and lower (if you roll your d20s separately you'll realize that about half the time advantage does nothing because the first roll was higher anyway). Don't forget if you do this to reduce a d20 for each disadvantage too.

First, Advantage is not a 2nd d20 roll. It's a +1d6 bonus. This is roughly the same as advantage (advantage is equivalent to +5 if you have 50% chance of hitting. If your chances are very low or very high, the impact is less. So +1d6 is roughly equivalent).

Second advantages stack - you could get more than a d6. But for things not to get completely crazy, (good or bad: disadvantage stacks too!), the extra D6 don't add, it's a "take the highest roll". So if you have advantage from 3 sources, one source of disadvantage, roll the 1d6 twice, take the best, and add this to your 1d20 roll. So if you have a lot of advantages, the bonus will approach +6 - so engaging with the world to make a fight go easier on you and harder on the enemy is worth doing.

Am I on to something?

No, because you bust bounded accuracy (the REAL winner of 5E) completely to shreds. Adding modifiers allows the result to be above 20 and below 1, which is against the purpose of advantage. If you break bounded accuracy, then you have to start using more DC 25 and putting in a few DC 5, because they're more likely to occur.

 

[RangerWickett]

I just like "one clever thing the PC did" gives advantage, while "two or more clever things" gives advantage and a +2 bonus.

 

[TheSword]

So people have been grumbling about 5e.

(tl,dr: advantage is great! but it has consequences - the players engage less. A proposal to fix it)

I think 5e is a good game. But like all versions of D&D, it's not perfect. Compromises had to be made (I consider it "medium crunch" and I am happy with the level of complexity, but for some it's too complex, for others not enough). Some new rules had unintended consequences - the "sort rest classes vs long rest classes" balance depends on the pacing of the game, which is strange and frustrating. There is no longer a "magical item market" where you could customize your magical gear - some see this as a good thing (I do!) and some see it as bad. Some say that the game is too easy, that the PCs are too tough (a valid criticism I think).

However, the advantage/disadvantage system was almost universally praised. And it is good! It was a bit... much... at times in the older editions.

This is an example from the PF game (the kingmaker AP where I play an alchemist)

"My starting to hit number is +9, but there are modifiers. I have drunk the mutagen, which gives me +4 to dex, which means +2 to hit. I've also cast reduce, which increases my attack by 1 and gives me 2 more dex so another +1. The foe is 25 feet away so point-blank shot kicks in, giving me another +1, BUT there is a -2 range penalty. The bard is signing that's +5 right? (our bards is *awesome) - nope the bard is more than 30 feet away from me, reducing the bonus to +3. I'm also firing into melee (-4) and there is some cover (-2) so that's not great... but wait I'm hasted by the sorcerer, so I get another +1! So now it 9 +4 +1 +1 +1 -2 +3 -4 -2 + 1= +12 (... I think)... vs touch attack armor"

And this changes every round! I take just take dex damage, or been hit by a debuff? did range changes, is cover less (or more), did a buffing spell expire, the bard stopped signing, etc etc etc."

Advantage sweeps almost all of this away. With very few exception like cover, in most situations you have advantage (roll twice take the best), normal chances of success, or disadvantage (roll twice take the worse). This ended the constant re-calculations of bonuses changing from round to round. It made the game faster and easier. Some people prefer the complexity of 3e/PF, but for a lot it made the game better.

But some of the discontent about 5e was more... nebulous. Some blamed the "Mercer Effect". Others that the game didn't "feel" right.

Recently, I saw this video about 5e being like super-heroes and how the character's power all came from their sheet and that the rewards of engaging with the world were less - you could just use your "own" power to win. Now this video wasn't quite 100% right. You still need the other PCs IMO. And it didn't quite explain why you didn't need to "engage" anymore.

But that video made me realize what the issue is - it's advantage! Once you have advantage, getting more help doesn't matter. (I know that there are other bonuses you can get, but they are rare).

You don't need to find the higher grounds. You don't need to flank the giant. Just get advantage by doing one thing and you're good. And a lot of classes have ways to easily give themselves or others advantage. So you don't need to engage with the world as much! Just show up, and get ready to rumble!

So... how do we fix this?

First, Advantage is not a 2nd d20 roll. It's a +1d6 bonus. This is roughly the same as advantage (advantage is equivalent to +5 if you have 50% chance of hitting. If your chances are very low or very high, the impact is less. So +1d6 is roughly equivalent).

Second advantages stack - you could get more than a d6. But for things not to get completely crazy, (good or bad: disadvantage stacks too!), the extra D6 don't add, it's a "take the highest roll". So if you have advantage from 3 sources, one source of disadvantage, roll the 1d6 twice, take the best, and add this to your 1d20 roll. So if you have a lot of advantages, the bonus will approach +6 - so engaging with the world to make a fight go easier on you and harder on the enemy is worth doing.

Am I on to something?

Advantage that doesn’t stack encourages people to get stuck in.

Now what would be good is not stacking advantage, but allowing people to spend advantage to do more complicated things.

• Sacrifice advantage to be more precise with a hit - roll the weapon damage again and add it.
• Sacrifice advantage to knock the enemy prone or disarm them if you hit on the attack.
• Sacrifice advantage to move both of you 5 feet in one direction if you hit.
• Sacrifice advantage to give a friendly character within 5’ advantage instead.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Advantage that doesn’t stack encourages people to get stuck in.

Now what would be good is not stacking advantage, but allowing people to spend advantage to do more complicated things.

• Sacrifice advantage to be more precise with a hit - roll the weapon damage again and add it.
• Sacrifice advantage to knock the enemy prone or disarm them if you hit on the attack.
• Sacrifice advantage to move both of you 5 feet in one direction if you hit.
• Sacrifice advantage to give a friendly character within 5’ advantage instead.

Oh I love the idea of "spending" advantage!