The problem with elves (question posed)

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, as you suggest, reality would intrude on them from the outside. So some local noble from Hyboria attacks the elves, kills a bunch, the rest flee into the woods and manage to hide.

At that point things are entirely different from how you describe. At that point they can start using their nightvision and alliances with the beasts to make life difficult for future interlopers into the forest. Being long-lived, they're unlikley to forget how dangerous humans are.

Plus, while the humans are busy "living in reality" (ie. hauling water, burying their relatives, fighting amongst each other and trying to heal from the plague), elves can hone their war skills, develop plans and magic. People with free time don't just sit around and stare at the wall - in fact, it's not uncommon that the fighting nobility is generally those persons with the most time on their hands. If you've had 800 years to practice archery, you're probably pretty good at it. Since we call all just eat leaves, then I don't have to have 90% of my population spend all it's time farming in order to feed a small elite to do it's fighting for it.

So after they've turned their forest into a fortress-maze of death-traps, they'd probably start expanding outward. Either magically control or bribe the local humans so that they have plenty of advanced warning of another incursion. Maybe blight the croplands of those who won't cooperate around the forest to give them a good buffer.

Ultimately, there's no reason that humans aren't as vulnerable to the same rivalries and greed that the elves are. Unless there's some sort of remarkable race-based animosity, there's no reason that having a bunch of powers suddenly becomes a disadvantage.

Having a bunch of powers, makes you a threat to the other powers. The more powers the elves have, the more they stand out in a kill or be killed world. And there is always envy, jealousy, and hate for the sake of hate! (Those elves have the good life, while we starve. Let's go kill the pointy ears!)
I can think of a lot of races that want to kill elves passionately. Orcs, bugbears, giants, evil dwarves, the drow, the phaerimm, Iuz and his demons, Ivid and his devils, all the Knights of Takhisis, Rajak and his Knights of Purity, the sahuagin ... the list is long indeed. Why do they want to kill elves? That is not the point: they just enjoy killing elves!

Forests are not quite the refuges they are made out to be.
If enough humans (or orcs) exist, they can simply through sheer numbers destroy the defenders, and hack and burn the forest in the process so nobody else can use it for defense. Any castle, whether stone or trees, can fall if sufficient force is brought to bear, and humans have endless forces (or if not them, a hundred thousand strong orc hoard, or an invasion of demons, also works.)
Furthermore, forests usually have their *own* peoples. The incoming elves are trespassers. Will the native lizard men put up with these trespassers? Will the yuan-ti in their secret hideout appreciate the gatecrashers? This is the Dreaded Wilderness we are talking about, and the refugee elves are running right into it, hoping for safety!

Ok, so the elves are now entrenched in the forest (a classic theme.)
Consider the game Risk. I am Ivid, and I have 5 Armies on Rauxes. You are the elves, and you have 5 Armies in the Adri Forest. (No, I am not going to ignore you. Yes, North Province and Ahlissa and Drax the Invulnerable and Nyrond and the Grandwood, etc. are problems, but you are also a nuisance.)
Now, a few turns (or decades) later, you have 50 Armies in the Adri, and I have 30 Armies in Rauxes. It's time to go to North Kingdom, ally with them and their 30 Armies, and proceed to purify the Adri of all elven slime. Or Ahlissa. Or even Nyrond. Nothing like diplomacy. You hide in your woods and are isolationist, and have no allies. I, on the other hand, have a whole host of potential friends.
This scenario is what eventually brought down Qualinesti. A few hundred years after the Cataclysm, worshippers of Takhisis got it right and formed a powerful army, and wiped the floor with those elves. Turrosh Mak will pull this on Celene, eventually. And didn't Kymil Nemesin really mess up Evermeet, and take out it's last Towers of High Magic?

You can't sit back in isolation. *Someone* is going to notice your doings. If not humans then orcs. If not orcs, then demons. If not demons then drow. If not drow, perhaps the illithid think elven brains taste especially good.

Just think of what would have happened to all of the elves of Greyhawk and Greyspace, if Vecna and his legions had SUCCESSFULLY come forward in time ...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

You're just not trying hard enough. Or you have something basically wrong.

I have run, and been in, numerous games, and I have yet to see elves becoming (or being) fascists that want to destroy all other races, except maybe orcs (but then again, everyone would like to do that, including some orcs)

Note that this is the thread starter's opinion, not the core D&D assumption. They might be somewhat aloof (out of synch with the other races, who die way too quickly), but not necessarily hostile towards other races - not any more than other races, like humans or dwarves.

Tolkien depicted elves as superior to humans in most ways, but still they didn't want to exterminate everything, and in fact, they didn't manage to hold on to their dominant position.

I do not think elves are superior to all the other races.
I think they are *inferior* to the other races. They have been driven to ground, slaughtered, and reduced to tribal remnants, with a few nations tucked away in hiding here and there.
But the elves *could* stand their own. I'm saying they cannot do it, using human methods of savagery, ruthlessness, warlike tendencies, and so on. They cannot 'out human' humans. It just doesn't work.
Since hiding also does not work, there must be a third way. So, what is that way?

That is the question here. What is that third way? How can elves *be* elves, and still prevail?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It's a question of quantity, I think. I've heard far more excruciatingly obnoxious takes on elves than decent ones. As far as I'm concerned, they're poisoned beyond being worth saving. And I'm pretty tired of the RPG assumption that every fantasy setting needs to have elves, orcs, and dragons in it, anyway--hell, even fantasy novels have gotten past that rut--so I haven't got a lot of investment in the concept to begin with.

What the elves need, is an *elvish* answer to all the problems and pitfalls.
The reason they come off as obnoxious, in my opinion, is that they keep trying to outhuman the humans. That doesn't work, so we give them all sorts of special powers to compensate, it still doesn't work (ala the Noldor) so we give them more powers, it *still* doesn't work, so we given them mongo powers.
The drow are the ultimate end in this chain of reasoning. Totally savage, insane, violent, willing to do anything. Extremely powerful (SR 10 to start with in 2nd Edition)
And still totally inept (if mighty Menzoberranzan could not conquer pathetic Mithril Hall, that's inept.)

A different approach is needed.

 

[Aus_Snow]

How, aside from Playing Human (the way most races in the Star Wars Universe do) and being warlike and aggressive and a bunch of killers, and ... aside from running away and hiding in ever deeper forests ... how do the elves cope and thrive in a hard world (ala Hyboria) ?

OK, I'll have a bash at this one (hope you don't mind), however surreal this thread appears to me in general. . .

Adaptability
Ingenuity
Resourcefulness
Allies (e.g., nature and nature-lovers, but also whoever they can get 'on side', if necessary)
Compromise when required, including, but not limited to, acceptable deals along the way
Innate magical superiority (and after all, they can always specialise in Enchantment, Illusion, Transmutation, Abjuration. . . whatever doesn't involve roasting foes, I suppose.)
Superhuman senses
Utilising their collective advantage of the long view, because of an Elf's fantastically long natural lifespan
. . .


Dunno. Perhaps I just don't get it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, I think your wrong, but that's not the point. I agree with what someone else wrote "if you dont want your players to play elves, then say it" you shouldn't just make a cross-the-board statment that takes up several pages of text to explain your oppinion of a mythos that's older then you, or any writer you quoted.


My opinion: the only reason that elves dont ever put the hurt on humans is this; they are of a higher breed, they've gone through the "we're going to fight and take" they are the wise, the platos' and aristotles of the world, in a race. But, but no means are they totally peaceful. As any wise people, violence has it's place. However, to an elf, it would be defense, and only to the point that they enemy sees the cost of their attempts. Their way of waring would be to show their might quickly with their ability to ben the laws of reality. I mean, what would an army of men do against an army of elves which could call down lightning and fireballs.

Another question. In some casses, elves live outside of humanity, because they simply can; like an alien race, they think we are quaint, and cute, like children or a dog. Something that hasn't yet "got it" but, they like us because their a a Few who understand. Also, being so wise and noble, the elves, as a people, later in their long lives, come to understand that the only way to understand one's life, is to play it out, fully, and so, I feel that later in their lives, they choose to die; or, allow it to happen so that it is over. To go on and on would be a human thing, not an elven thing.


Elves have always been seen as godlike, or angelic, I would think that for the most part humanity would be afraid of them, or atleast, weary.

You've talked about great authors, I would suggest you reread some of them to try and see what they were really talking about. In my readings, I've only found one author, the same that inspired Mr. Moorcock, the writer of "The Broken Sword" and in his book, the only reason that the elves were being pushed back and beaten by MEN, was the fact that they didn't watch them; they let them go uninspected, or met for so long that by the time the humans invaded the part of the world where the elves were, there were so many of them. In each villiage or castle that the humans came to, the elves were first kind, but then they were just out gunned.

You must understand the restrictions that each author gave to his/her elves. None were as powerful or with so wide-range as those in D&D, and that is where I think you've made a mistake. They two are not the same.


Game On

Actually, I *want* my players to play elves. I *want* elves to be enjoyable to play.
Once, everyone played elves because only elves (and half-elves) could be the dreaded Fighter/Mages. But now, any race can pull that stunt, and then some. (Now, only elves can be the dreaded Faerunian Bladesingers, but most DMs disallow that option.)

Ok, so the elves are the Platos and Aristotles of the world. That's fine.
How then, to translate philosophical and ethical majesty into the power of war?
Throwing fireballs and lightning bolts on the army of men destroys that army. Then the humans learn how to throw fireballs and lightning bolts, and destroy the forest, elves and all.
Rome, if you remember, crushed Greece. Philosophy was no match for the Roman Legion. But this is fantasy, and perhaps here philosphy can beat those Roman Legions. Perhaps the elves have a better answer than the Macedonian Phlanx (sp?)

But what? What is their answer?

How can you make reason and nobility, philosphy and ethics, goodness and virtue (all elven traits), stand up against endless savagery, pitiless reality, and hoards of enemies?
I think it can be done. I think elves can be made viable. Just my take.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Seconded.

Though, by way of counterpoint . . . Shevarash.

Thank you. Hey there, moritheil.
Glad to be back.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I don't know if I would play one or not. Like many of the early comments, I'm not certain I see why they are the way are or rather, what you mean to do by making the elves this way.

My last three campaigns (which were related to each other) were largely Elf-centric. The idea was that after the first campaign, one of some of my players played the sons and daughters of their Elven characters. This meant their Human counterparts were the great grandchildern of the previous characters in many cases.

My Elves look like D&D Elves on paper, but paper isn't what my games are about. They're about people. So we've developed an incredibly long and detailed culture and history for the Elves and PCs have to live with the good, the bad and the complex legacy of all they've learned.

Don't make'em not want Elves. Make Elves cool.

Yes!
Exactly how did you and your players make elves fun to play?
How did your elves cope with the (grin) savage reality of the campaign world?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Listen to the smart man. The flavor that Edena is using for elves seems to me fairly uninspired, and the flavor and mechanics definitely don't seem to have a consistently necessary correlation.

I much prefer something like what Eberron did with the elves (snip)

I've never read any source material on the Eberron elves, but everything I'm hearing about them is good. They seem to be the kind of elves who can *be* elves, and still kick some butt on aggressors all around.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Let this be your mantra. Whenever you feel the urge to get silly and make elf-players' lives hell, repeat the mantra until the bad vibes leave.


Don't curse the darkness, light a flamethrower sort of thing, you know. Instead of complaining that elves seem boring and bad and everything, go and make them good. Everyone can complain about them, but the good DM will do something about it.

Again, I'll say it: I *want* players to enjoy playing elves. I *want* elves as an equal, and not inferior, race. (All those powers I gave them in the sblock, does absolutely nothing to make them equal ... and that's the point. Something more, something esoteric and special, something creative, is needed. I'm just not sure what that something is.)

 

[Shadeydm]

The idea that elves don't fight back very well certainly wasn't true in the case of Prof. Tolkein's elves. They fought back just fine, however they did have the misfortune of A: being mislead by the sons of Feanor and B: choosing to make war on the DnD equivilant of a deity. Yet even they they were pretty sucessful and were actually for a time able to lay siege to Angband. In fact one elf in particular (Fingolfin) held his own against and sucessfully wounded Morgoth to the point where he refused to ever engage in combat again. Were the elves a tragic tale of poor judgement sure but they were never the sad losers you describe.