The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[fusangite]

I choose to look at elves through the prizm of the game rules because ... I feel that I'd be out in the proverbial 'middle of nowhere' if I did not.

Yes, the rules are a skeletal framework that one has to flesh out into a campaign setting. Problem is, from my point of view, is that when you do the fleshing out, you inevitably arrive with the doomed elf scenario.

I don't think of this as a flaw in the rules. I think of it as a failure on my part to consider the rules more throughly, to comprehend them better, and to make better extrapolations out of what I have read. It is my failure (as your rebuttals have pointed out.)

I would enjoy reading, if any of you wished to show how you built a viable elven civilization, nations, and cultures, from your own creativity and efforts.

Edena, I would be happy to take you up on your challenge if you could do what you have been asked to do at least five times on this thread: tell us precisely which rules (complete with book and page numbers) you feel define elvish societies.

The only stuff I can find that is descriptive of elvish society in the core rules is PHB 15-16, 104-05 and MM 101-04. Is there anything I'm missing here before I get going?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Alright, I've read your rebuttals (and rebukes.)

Tell me then: how do *you* work things out?

From what sources do you derive your conceptualization of elves for the game?
What kind of elven society, culture, and civilizations have you created?
How do your elves cope with their antagonists in your campaign setting?
What sort of future do your elves look forward to?
What can PC elves in your campaign expect to deal with, directly related to their heritage as elves?

Sincerely Yours
Edena_of_Neith

EDIT: fusangite, I will do that. Still, I'd like to hear of your conceptions and creations.

 

[Derren]

I fully agree with the original text. As written elves would not survive in any D&D world except because of ther Lotr image of perfect beings which leads to that writers and many DMs simply say that the elves are somehow powerfull and survive despite being against any logic.

The biggest problem for elves are the low birth rate (which is coupled with the long life span) and their choice of terrain and nature loving society.
The first means that elves would be destroyed through attrition. By the time a orc tribe has breed warriors, trained and equipped armor to wage war on elves, the elves have not ever recovered from the previous war yet. So slowly the elves would be overrun by shorter living races.
The second means that elves lack many important ressources. Ore, gold, diamonds and many other exotic materials required for spellcasting (favored class wizard, remember?)
Having a lot of wizards is very expensive (money and material). That has to come from somewhere.

And as the OP said, elves have no special abilities to compensate. They are not exceptional wizards or super forest fighters.
How to remedy that? The easiest fix is to lower the elven lifespan, or at least their breeding age to something more reasonable. But as it is now, elves are probably the slowest breeding race in D&D. They even breed slower than dragons.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Edena, I would be happy to take you up on your challenge if you could do what you have been asked to do at least five times on this thread: tell us precisely which rules (complete with book and page numbers) you feel define elvish societies.

The only stuff I can find that is descriptive of elvish society in the core rules is PHB 15-16, 104-05 and MM 101-04. Is there anything I'm missing here before I get going?

Ok.
Where in the game rules are elvish societies defined? Where in the game rules does it state or imply elves are doomed?
You've asked many times. Here are some excerpts from the core books.

-

From the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 20:

'A moment of reflection will bring them to the unalterable conclusion that the game is heavily weighted towards mankind.'
'Advanced D&D is unquestionably 'humanocentric', with demi-humans, semi-humans, and humanoids in various orbits around the sun of humanity. Men are the worst monsters, particularly high level characters such as clerics, fighters, and magic-users - whether singly, in small groups, or in large companies. The ultra-powerful beings of other planes are more fearsome - the 3 D's of demi-gods, demons, and devils are enough to strike fear into most characters, let alone when the very gods themselves are brought into consideration. Yet, there is a point where the well-equipped, high-level party of adventurers can challenge a demon prince, an arch-devil, or a demi-god. While there might well be some near or part humans with the group so doing, it is certain that the leaders will be human. In cooperation men bring ruin upon monsterdom, for they have no upper limits as to level or acquired power from spells or items.'
'The game features humankind for a reason. It is the most logical basis in an illogical game. From a design aspect it provides the sound groundwork. From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it provides the most readily usable assumptions. From a participation approach it is the only method, for all players are, after all is said and done, human, and it allows them the role with which most are most desirous and capable of indentifying with.'

From the 1st Edition Player's Handbook, page 14:

Elven classes allowed and level limits:

Cleric: 7th (NPCs only)
Druid: No
Fighter: 7th (elven fighters with less than 17 strength are limited to 5th level; those with 17 strength are limited to 6th level)
Paladin: No
Ranger: No
Magic-User: 11th (Elven magic-users with intelligence of less than 17 are limited to 9th level; those with intelligence of 17 are limited to 10th level)
Illusionist: No
Thief: Unlimited
Assassin: 10th level
Monk: No

From the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 21:

' ... ((elves)) concerning themselves with natural beauty, dancing and frolicking, playing and singing, unless necessity dictates otherwise. They are not fond of ships or mines, but enjoy growing things and gazing at the open sky. Even though elves tend towards haughtiness and arrogance at times, they regard their friends and associates as equals. They do not make friends easily, but a friend (or enemy) is never forgotten. They prefer to distance themselves from humans, have little love for dwarves, and hate the evil denizens of the woods.
Their humor is clever, as are their songs and poetry. Elves are brave but never foolhardy. They eat sparingly; they drink mead and wine, but seldom in excess. While they find well-wrought jewelry a pleasure to behold, they are not overly interested in money or gain. They find magic and swordplay (or any refined combat art) fascinating. If they have a weakness it lies in these interests.'

From the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 24:

Elves: base age (starting PCs) 100 years, plus variable 5d6 years

From the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 20:

'The human race has one special ability in the AD&D game: Humans can choose to be of any class - warrior, wizard, priest, or rogue - and can rise to great level in any class. The other races have fewer choices of character classes and usually are limited in the level they can attain.'

From the 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 22:

Racial Class and Level Limits

Elves: Cleric 12th, Fighter 12th, Mage 15th, Ranger 15th, Thief 12th, Other Classes no

From the 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 21:

'The DM can, if he chooses, make any class available to any race. This will certainly make your players happy. But before throwing the doors open, consider the consequences.'
'If the only special advantage humans have is given to all the races, who will want to play a human? Humans would be the weakest race in your world. Why play a 20th-level human paladin when you could play a 20th-level elf paladin and have all the abilities of paladins and elves?'
'If none of the player characters are human, it is probably safe to assume that no non-player characters of any importance are human either. Your world would have no human kingdoms, or hur powerful wizards. It would be run by dwarves, elves, and gnomes.'
'This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you must consider what kind of world nonhumans would create. Building a believable fantasy world is a daunting task; creating a believable alien fantasy world (which is what a world dominated by nonhumans would be) is a huge challenge even for the best writers of fantasy.'

-

Those are, as stated, excerpts from the 1st and 2nd edition books.
Consider the settings based on the 1st Edition rules: Mystara (the Known World), Greyhawk (Oerth), the Forgotten Realms (Toril, Faerun, the Hordelands (Toril, central part of continent), Oriental Adventures (generic, then Toril, eastern part of continent), Dragonlance (Ansalon, Taladas, Krynn) and the Ravenloft module I6 which inspired the Ravenloft setting.
Then consider the 2nd Edition settings: Zakhara (AL-QADIM), Aebrinis (Birthright), Athas (Dark Sun), Maztica (continent on Toril), Mystara (Red Steel), Planescape, and Spelljammer (Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace, etc.)

In every single one of these settings, humans dominate.

Consider the 2nd Edition Arcane Age setting.
In Netheril, humans dominated. They did not dominate elsewhere. But it was NETHERIL that caused the downfall of Mystra and the loss of 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells for everyone, and which made the casting of High Magic deadly for elves.
HUMANS wrought this harm upon everyone, elves included.

In Myth Drannor, elves were dominant ... in Myth Drannor. Then Myth Drannor was crushed by the Army of Darkness.

After the time of the First Flowering, elves were dominant over Faerun for a long time. This is an exception to the rule above. Elves lorded it over everyone.
Then the elves underwent the Crown Wars. Most of the original elven civilizations collapsed, a great part of the entire elven population was slaughtered, and the survivors were scattered.

-

From the above I can conclude the following:

- In all the official settings in the current time frame of the game, humans dominate and elves are the side show.

- Historically, in Faerun, elves dominated after the First Flowering. Then they destroyed themselves (a very human tendency and problem ...) The survivors, weakened and scattered, were eventually overcome by assorted enemies.
- Historically, on Oerth, elves may never have dominated. The Suloise Imperium and Baklunish Empire were human dominated, and history does not record beyond their time.
- On Krynn, elves never dominated. Have never dominated since the Age of Starbirth. But humans have dominated, they brought on the Cataclysm, and the elves suffered massively due to that event.
- On Aebrinis, elves once dominated. Humans slaughtered them and took their lands, and now humans dominate.
- On Athas, halflings once dominated. But never elves. Then Rajak slaughtered most of both races, leaving the survivors as barbarians.
- In Realmspace and in several other crystal spheres, the elves achieved a brief dominance after the First Inhuman War. But the scro are back, and elves are just another race struggling for survival in Wildspace.
- In Ravenloft, elves dominate nowhere. They practically exist nowhere, since they are usually attacked on sight.

- The designers of 1st edition felt this (human dominance) was the appropriate situation, and he was the designer of 1st edition.
- The designers of 2nd edition also felt this (human dominance) was the appropriate situation.

- The dominace of humankind is backed up by most of the fantasy novels based on the AD&D game. And many of these books are Classics in their own right, in my opinion.

* If the novels portray elves as inferior, if the settings portray elves as inferior, if the rules mandate that elves are inferior, and yet all of the above indicate a competitive world with competitive races, then I conclude that the elves are doomed. *

* Only in 3rd Edition, do I concede that this may not be the truth of matters. Yet humans are portrayed as dominant in the 3rd edition settings of Kalamar and Eberron also. So perhaps even in 3rd Edition elves are still doomed. The burden of proof to the contrary has yet to be presented. *

 

[fusangite]

The biggest problem for elves are the low birth rate

Two points:
1. Where in the rules does it say that elves' birth rates are low? Page numbers please.
2. When high birth rate societies come into conflict with low birth rate societies in the real world, what tends to happen? Today, the most powerful nations on earth have amongst the lowest birth rates: Russia, China, the US, the UK, France, Japan and Germany whereas the poorest and least powerful nations have some of the highest birth rates.

Even if I accepted, which I don't, that the rules mandate elves having low birth rates, I see no evidence that high birth rates are a formula for military, economic and social success and low birth rates, a formula for disaster. If that were true, wouldn't everything in the world be different?

The first means that elves would be destroyed through attrition. By the time a orc tribe has breed warriors, trained and equipped armor to wage war on elves, the elves have not ever recovered from the previous war yet. So slowly the elves would be overrun by shorter living races.

So, what happens in our world when societies with low birth rates to go war with societies with high birth rates? In our world, they tend to win. They also tend to have short-term post-war booms in birth rate. Now, I think there is a host of reasons that low-birth rate, long-lived societies tend to succeed in conflicts with high-birth rate, short-lived societies. But I'll just mention one here because I think it is especially relevant for D&D: education and experience are worth a whole lot. This basic fact about human societies is something that D&D hugely magnifies.

The second means that elves lack many important ressources. Ore, gold, diamonds and many other exotic materials required for spellcasting (favored class wizard, remember?)

Again, my answer has two parts:
1. Where do the rules say that elvish forests lack resources?
2. Even if I accepted that elvish forests lacked resources, which I do not, let's examine the rates of diamond ownership in diamond-producing societies versus the rates of diamond ownership in wealthy trading nations that produce no diamonds. What you will find is that when it comes to rare, specialized commodities, (a) no society produces all of these or even most of them (b) end-users acquire them through trade not extraction.

How to remedy that? The easiest fix is to lower the elven lifespan,

Huh? If they had shorter lifespans, wouldn't their reproductive rate go even lower!? If it takes elves a 700-year reproductive life to produce the number of children they do, wouldn't they produce even fewer if you chopped the length of that reproductive life?

or at least their breeding age to something more reasonable. But as it is now, elves are probably the slowest breeding race in D&D. They even breed slower than dragons.

So, is the plan here just to say something over and over again with no supporting evidence whatsoever or is somebody going to be produce a statement in the RAW about elvish birth rates?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I fully agree with the original text. As written elves would not survive in any D&D world except because of ther Lotr image of perfect beings which leads to that writers and many DMs simply say that the elves are somehow powerfull and survive despite being against any logic.

The biggest problem for elves are the low birth rate (which is coupled with the long life span) and their choice of terrain and nature loving society.
The first means that elves would be destroyed through attrition. By the time a orc tribe has breed warriors, trained and equipped armor to wage war on elves, the elves have not ever recovered from the previous war yet. So slowly the elves would be overrun by shorter living races.
The second means that elves lack many important ressources. Ore, gold, diamonds and many other exotic materials required for spellcasting (favored class wizard, remember?)
Having a lot of wizards is very expensive (money and material). That has to come from somewhere.

And as the OP said, elves have no special abilities to compensate. They are not exceptional wizards or super forest fighters.
How to remedy that? The easiest fix is to lower the elven lifespan, or at least their breeding age to something more reasonable. But as it is now, elves are probably the slowest breeding race in D&D. They even breed slower than dragons.

This is also a popular notion in the novels, in the settings, and implied in the rules.
If what you say is true, Derren, it GREATLY strengthens my case. (I stress the If, however.)

A race that does not reproduce, when in war with a race that reproduces quickly, loses if it suffers casualties. Elves are almost *always* portrayed as suffering casualties in their wars, in novels, settings, and as implied within the rules. Thus, the elves lose.
The exception is if there are mitigating circumstances within the rules or setting conceptions or conceptions within the novels (such as resurrection, undeath, retreat into the faerie realm, retreat to a safe place, etc.) If elves will not take advantage of these mitigating circumstances, then elves lose.

 

[mmadsen]

Edena, I'm still not clear on your argument, and I'm not clear on your counter-arguments to SHARK's Elves Are Not Doomed thread.

If you want doomed elves, it's easy to have doomed elves. If you want triumphant elves; it's easy to have triumphant elves.

 

[Banshee16]

I appreciate that you go into a coma when you reach 0 Charisma in 3rd Edition.

Lifeproof, in 3rd Edition, would supersede this rule, allowing one to go to negative Charisma numbers and remain active. There is no barrier at which this process is stopped: Charisma might stop going lower at, say, -10 but the recipient of Lifeproof could keep right on going.
In fact, even being vaporized will not stop a Lifeproofed being. The vapors will coalesce into a ghostly being of magical force, capable of picking up and use items and weapons normally, as well as spellcasting, talking, and so on.
The 2nd Edition Disintegrate will kill a Lifeproofed being, since it involves total disintegration. The 3rd Edition version, which leaves dust, will not kill or incapacitate that being.

It's a fair spell for elves, considering how stacked against them the odds are. Elves use magic to even those odds ...

So you're changing the rules, so that now characters can go into negative ability scores, when the most basic of rules claim the you can't go below 0 in an ability score.

This whole argument, though interesting, feels like you're just grabbing whatever rules or references you can, from whichever edition you need, to support your argument, but then ignoring anything that disagrees with it, in order to make your point.

We still haven't seen a core reference to them not reproducing, or not being able to adapt, etc.

As to farming, an episode of Digging for the Truth that I saw several weeks ago discussed the pre-classic Mayans, and mentioned how they were able to figure out that getting muck from swamps provided them with highly fertile soil that allowed them to support much larger than normal populations in concentrated areas, without being required to clearcut everything for farming. The show made the claim that they ended up ruining things for themselves because they eventually needed to clearcut land, to get fuel they needed to work with the limestone they plastered all over their pyramids. But in the absence of making giant pyramids, they could have sustained massive populations without clearcutting. All living in the jungle.

Who's to say the elves haven't figured out similar agricultural practices? So they live in tree houses. That means they're building vertically instead of horizontally....thus they need less land. They could be having every tree/tree home supporting multiple vertically oriented gardens, on which they use both magic, and advanced agricultural practices to maximize the crop yield.

I remain unconvinced that they are completely maladapted, and unable to compete. Most of the "fluff" regarding lower reproductive rates is really in additional supplements, as already stated...it's not actually in the core. But it does make sense, given that a population of beings who lived 500+ years, and also reproduce as fast as humans can, would likely be very unbalanced with everything around them. They'd run out of room very quickly. Maybe that's why there's a tendency for fluff to describe them as reproducing slowly. Imagine how quickly a population would grow if a female elf had a child every 2-3 years......for a 200-300 year span of her life?

In terms of core information, all we really know is that they're a little frailer than humans, a little more agile, they've got keener senses, a resistance to sleep and charm magic, are better at detecting hidden things, and can see in the dark as well as a cat, for a distance of 60' (which is a massive, massive advantage, in a pre-industrial world where thermal vision goggles and night vision goggles are unavailable). And they live much longer. On the other hand, they're not as skilled (fewer skill points), and they are less flexible with respect to what tricks they know (1 less feat). I suspect that the rest is really just "noise".

I'm thinking that a smart elven army would *always* fight human forces at night....likely from a distance, with bows. Looking purely at abilities, I think the night vision is their largest advantage. Try actually walking into a forest at night, with just a flashlight (to simulate a torch. Better yet, try bringing a lamp which doesn't have a directional beam of light). You get illumination directly around you, but the foliage very quickly dampens it. You're a sitting duck for a person sitting 20' away relying on their own eyes, because the light illuminates you good enough to make you a perfect target. And if he has low-light vision, it makes it even worse.

Banshee

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Two points:
1. Where in the rules does it say that elves' birth rates are low? Page numbers please.
2. When high birth rate societies come into conflict with low birth rate societies in the real world, what tends to happen? Today, the most powerful nations on earth have amongst the lowest birth rates: Russia, China, the US, the UK, France, Japan and Germany whereas the poorest and least powerful nations have some of the highest birth rates.

Let me answer that, within the context of the game and novels based on the game.
One of the races (the gnomes?) within the setting could undergo the industrial revolution, gain immense insights into science, and build superweapons such as missiles, tanks, fighter aircraft, high explosives, assorted firearms, and even nuclear weapons.
Do you believe it will be the elves who first develop such weapons? Or is it more likely humans, dwarves, gnomes, or even kobolds are more likely to have these weapons first? Within the conception of the various races, do you believe elves would be the first to industrialize and produce modern weapons?

And even if the elves were the first to develop such weapons, would this grant them supremacy, or would it destroy them?
What evidence we have indicates it would destroy them.
Elves *had* a superweapon in historical Faerun: High Magic. And they used this superweapon on each other, to produce atrocities like the High Moor, the obliteration of cities, the devastation of entire regions, and the loss of vast forests.
Has the elven attitude that produced this destruction changed, since that time? Consider the treatment of Arilyn Moonflower. Consider the murder of the niece of Coronal Eltargrim. The evidence would suggest the attitude has not changed.

I believe elves would be among the last to obtain such modern weapons. And if they did anyways, they would destroy each other with them. Assuming the other races did not destroy them first.
Under no circumstances can I see the elves obtaining supremacy through the gain of modern weaponry.

The Terran nations you cite, are supreme due to their weaponry. Their birth rate is irrelevant to that supremacy, in my opinion.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

The Terran nations you cite, are supreme due to their weaponry. Their birth rate is irrelevant to that supremacy, in my opinion.

The U.S. has pursued technological superiority in weapons systems because of a lower population/birth rate than other societies.