The problem with FLGS

[eris404]

So that's the line of thought I'm idly toying with right now: "What would make a gaming space a better experience than you can get at home?" I've got some possibilities already: better furnishings, theme rooms, a library of games (possibly with lending privileges), beverages and/or GMs on tap... I have no idea yet what's practical and what's not, I'm just noodling around in my head...

If I can slightly go off topic here, one of the things a nearby (to me) store has is a table with terrains for miniature gaming. This stuff is expensive, and while they do sell the terrains and buildings, many of their gamers can't afford either monetarily or space-wise to have whole tables full of terrain. I'm guessing that the hard-core mini gamers would pay a nominal fee to have game times, just as golfers pay for tee times.

Miniature gaming aside, if you haven't seen this on Monte Cook's site, take a look at these miniature buildings:

http://www.montecook.com/ptolus.html

I can imagine having use of rooms with big tables set up with buildings like these and other dungeon tiles, maybe with a set of monster counters or something. I think that would be a worthwhile service.

 

[Glyfair]

So that's the line of thought I'm idly toying with right now: "What would make a gaming space a better experience than you can get at home?"

The biggest advantage a game club/store has over what you can get at home is the players (or GMs). Sure, I can play at home with my friends, but what if my friends are busy and I want to do some gaming? What if one moves away and leaves me without someone to play the game we enjoyed playing?

Also, it's a chance to play games I might not play with my friends. I'm probably not going to spend the current $30-$40 on a game system to try it out with my friends unless I have a history with the game (ala the new Heroquest because I have a background with Runequest). That doesn't mean I might not be open to trying it, but it's not worth risking that much money on something that's going to sit on my shelf collecting dust (which happens all to often as it is).

I think the most successful game clubs are the ones that have regular, open games. Games that let people try new games, play with new people, etc. They try to get someone to run a new game when it's released so people can try it.

Also, I've found that keeping distractions to a minimum is good, too. I went to one store to play in a Mechwarrior: Dark Age tournament. They had an XBox that they rented by the hour. Many of the players were watching players play the Mechwarrior game on it and discussing renting the time after the tournament.

The problem was that it was right next to the playing area. The players were loud, the game was loud and the game had attracted a crowd watching. This made playing the tournament very difficult. A separate area with some distance would have been much, much better (oddly enough, they could have easily done this with the size and structure of their gaming area).

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Azure Trance]

Stores near my area have LANs for gaming (AOE, Medal of Honor, what have you RTS and FPS). They also have tables for miniature and CCG playing. Some have a pay per hour if you use their services ($2 for table usage, more for the LAN; but it's cheaper if you buy more hours). Others simply ask that you buy their products there instead of a pay per hour set up.

 

[TalonComics]

I was hoping you'd wander in, Talon-san. I have a feeling you're going have a different take on a number of my rantier statements -- and that your thoughts on the subject are going to be well worth listening to...

Changing subject to something Rel said..



I'm kind of leaning towards your "not enough folks want that kind of service" take myself. That's certainly the case given the standard approach to gaming space.

But one of the things I like about the direction of this thread is that sometime around Saturday it led me to look around my space and try to think, "Okay, what would make this much spiffier, something that would be <b>worth</b> the kind of monthly fee that a workout club gets?"

And oddly enough, the first thought I had was, "Damnit, I should frame the posters on the wall. It looks like a college dorm in here." Now that's just an incidental thing, but it highlights most of the problem -- there's very little in our gaming space that most people don't have in their living rooms or dorm rooms.

So that's the line of thought I'm idly toying with right now: "What would make a gaming space a better experience than you can get at home?" I've got some possibilities already: better furnishings, theme rooms, a library of games (possibly with lending privileges), beverages and/or GMs on tap... I have no idea yet what's practical and what's not, I'm just noodling around in my head...

I have the same problem but mine is mainly lack of space. If I had the space, I would increase the number of gaming tables first.

You might think this will be bizarre idea but I'd like to do a gaming environment where the table area has a living room feel to it. Some couches, a large surface area for gaming mats, minis, books and character sheets, and some decent lighting without overwhelming fluorescents. I think the idea I'm thinking of is an English gentlemen's club with multiple tables, chairs and casual seating as well. Of course this environment would be open to men and women of all ages. Heck, if I could afford it, I would even have a gentleman's gentleman handling drinks and food for players. Oh that would be so sweet!

~D

 

[Mark]

If you have game tables, I can not emphasize enough how useful a dry erase board is at the head of each one, on the wall, behind the DM where things can be drawn or tallied.

 

[satori01]

You might think this will be bizarre idea but I'd like to do a gaming environment where the table area has a living room feel to it...

I think the idea I'm thinking of is an English gentlemen's club
~D

Which I think is the right way to go Derek, people will pay for a nice environment and a feeling of living the good life, even if it is only on rental terms,(Belagio anyone).

The target audience for such a service I believe is going to be the segement of the gaming community that on their own probably cant afford minatures and Master Maze sets, and have squalid dingy apartments and dorm rooms,
(no offense is intended by these comments, tongue in cheek). When money is tight one often cant be to picky about ones roomates(= unfriendly gaming environment), one may not live in the "best" area with the "best" resources or even furniture to sit upon. I can easily see a gaming group of 5 people chipping in $10 bucks to use a premium space.

I dont see a DM with tons of minatures lugging his precious pieces of metal to a store to use a Master Maze set. Lets face it collecting minatures can quickly become an expensive hobby. Anyone that serious about using Master Maze on a regular basis can probably afford to equip a gaming center in his or her's own residence.

Virtual zones used to have something similiar to an old Victorian Club in them with a service bar,(non alcholic). The idea being that people could buy drinks while waiting to play the games.
What I often saw though was the lounge being taken over by MTG players, who used the tables for free and spent money at the bar.

 

[Rel]

I have the same problem but mine is mainly lack of space. If I had the space, I would increase the number of gaming tables first.

You might think this will be bizarre idea but I'd like to do a gaming environment where the table area has a living room feel to it. Some couches, a large surface area for gaming mats, minis, books and character sheets, and some decent lighting without overwhelming fluorescents. I think the idea I'm thinking of is an English gentlemen's club with multiple tables, chairs and casual seating as well. Of course this environment would be open to men and women of all ages. Heck, if I could afford it, I would even have a gentleman's gentleman handling drinks and food for players. Oh that would be so sweet!

~D

*A dapper chap sporting a handlebar moustache, wearing a three piece suit, saunters up to the bar at Talon's Gentlemans Gaming Club...*

"Good day, Geeves. Geoffrey, Reginald and I were going to get back to our RttToEE game in just a few moments, but I thought I'd take a drink first. Smiting evil is a dry and thirsty business and all that, you know."


Amusing thought. But not practical I don't think.

The problem that I see with this whole business is precisely one of the things that makes this hobby great: Minimal requirements.

I'm a scuba diver too. Want to talk about a bunch of gear and having a "place to play"? The gear alone costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars. And getting to a place to go diving usually requires a boat that even the serious diver doesn't want to have to buy. The high costs of the stuff and the transportation justifies what people spend to rent those things.

Face it, what it takes to engage in a roleplaying game is not terribly daunting. Once you've got the books and dice, all you really need is comfortable seating. Everything else is very optional.

My group wouldn't dream of trying to play 3E without a battlemat, but that only bumps our requirements to needing a decent sized flat surface (which isn't hard to come by). We use miniatures, but we could (and have) gotten by with tokens of some sort. Could the game store provide all these things? Of course. And they could make the whole set up very comfortable and nice too. But that costs money and costs must be recovered through either significantly increased sales (which I'm not convinced would naturally result from such a setup) or charging to use the gaming table.

The kicker is that, assuming that a group already has a place to play and is primarily using the store's gaming space because it is "nicer" than what they have at home, their dollars may be better spent actually improving their own space than renting somebody elses. If it costs each player $5 each week to rent the table space for a few hours, he could have spent that money on a miniature or some new dice or dry erase pens and the group would quickly amass a treasure trove of stuff for their home setup. It is just too relatively easy to spend that money on the stuff rather than the table rent and have something nice to show for it in the end.

Somebody mentioned a store with a LAN setup. That seems a more workable idea because you can't just save up $5 per week for a few weeks and have a LAN setup in your house. In other words, it is a much harder situation to replicate in the comfort of your own home for a fairly low cost. Even so, the only place that tried such a business around here (that I know of) quickly went under. I'm lucky though since one of the guys in our game group DOES have a LAN setup in his house .

I'm all for making the store look nicer and I agree that little touches (like spacecrime's framing of the posters) help make for a more "neat" environment. And if you're going to have gaming tables, something besides hard metal folding chairs would be great. But I still can't see enough people paying to play to justify anything approaching a Gentleman's Club atmosphere.

If you do make it work though, and Gary Gygax happens to drop by, he likes Bombay Saphire martinis with 3 olives stuffed with Blue Cheese. Just so you know.

 

[Arnwyn]

So that's the line of thought I'm idly toying with right now: "What would make a gaming space a better experience than you can get at home?"

Well, IMO, the answer is: "nothing". I don't think there is *anything* a FLGS can do to improve on the home experience.

Why would I want to lug my myriad of books to wherever the game store is? Further, at home I have a massive stereo loaded with hundreds of gaming tunes and a remote handy. I have a nice comfortable space for gaming, big table, padded seating, a fridge nearby with "free" (ie. no cash required) food. Every single one of my game books are on shelves right by me. All with the required amount of privacy so we can say what we want and be as loud as we want. Go elsewhere? I think not.

Further, as another poster noted, those that don't have such good conditions might rather spend their money on improving their conditions, as opposed to renting them... For those that are willing to rent, well, now we're working with a much smaller market.

What I want from my FLGS is for them to have the book in stock, right at the release date, and be able to special-order anything they don't have reliably and quickly. I want them to be able to tell me *exactly* when the release date for certain books are, and *exactly* when they'll get it in. I'll buy at cover price if they can do this. As a consumer, I'll dump them for "deep discounters" or online retailers if they falter.

 

[dsfriii]

What I want from my FLGS is for them to have the book in stock, right at the release date, and be able to special-order anything they don't have reliably and quickly. I want them to be able to tell me *exactly* when the release date for certain books are, and *exactly* when they'll get it in. I'll buy at cover price if they can do this. As a consumer, I'll dump them for "deep discounters" or online retailers if they falter.

I have to agree strongly with this statement. The other thing I want from my FLGS is considerate, nice and knowledgeable staff. I am so tired of visiting game stores where I know more of what product is coming out then they do or where the staff is more interested in gaming or collect the latest collectable game (Magic, Heroclix, etc...)

 

[spacecrime.com]

Scattershot thoughts...

<i>arnwyn</i>: As noted before, I can't say I disagree with your answer. At the very least, I'm now convinced that product stores and play spaces are separate businesses with separate customer bases. They're complementary at best, and one mistake store owners like me are making is trying too hard to combine them.

Your space description does point out a few more possible features: stereos, tunes (and special effects), soundproofing.

<i>Rel</i>: You've got an excellent point, but I don't 100% buy into "it's a better deal to improve own space" argument. People can buy home gyms, but lots of them prefer to go to a workout club instead. A lot of city-dwellers live mostly outside their apartments because they don't want to try to fit their friends in a studio apartment. (Which points out a problem for less urban locations like mine. ) Many product store customers are in your situation and don't want/need play space, but that doesn't yet exclude the <b>possible</b> existence of another customer base that can be developed.

As far as other customer bases go, it's worth noting that the heaviest users of our current space are kids and teens. Most of them have perfectly nice homes to play in, and they're here because they want to get out of the house.

BTW, we've experimented with a LAN in the past. So far it's the most expensive mistake I've ever made. Other store owners have done very well with them, of course, but we quickly discovered that we couldn't afford to keep up with the technology folks had at home. FWIW, once you made the initial investment in a spiffy playspace I think it would be easier to keep improving it -- you wouldn't have to worry so much about a technology curve and obsolescence. Monthly improvement would have to be part of the plan, though.

<i>satori01</i> (and <i>eris04</i>): I can't believe it hasn't occurred to me before, but in addition to various terrain and dungeon stuff, I think a full suite of miniatures to borrow would be a must. As a GM who loves minis but never has any time to collect and paint them, I'd love to be able to borrow everything I need for a session from the library.

I guess the ideal is really for the GM to be able to show up with nothing but his notes -- or better yet, show up with nothing at all and have Jeeves hand him a printout or PDA with the GM's emailed-to-the-space notes on it.

(Jeeves can also suggest plots, help the GM plan the campaign, and fish impromptu backup adventures out of the library on demand. If we're fantasizing, let's think big! )

<i>Mark:</i> LOVE the dry erase board idea.

<i>TalonComics</i>: If it makes you feel better, we've got lots of space and haven't really gotten it together yet. Whether we move or not, I've got to make some tough decisions over the next two years as to how to use our space better -- I want to be proud of our playing space and the profits it makes by the time our 10th anniversary rolls around, and we've got a long way to go on both counts.

I'd love to know what your bricks & mortar store looks like, by the way. I don't have any visualization of it at all, so I'm very curious.

cheers,