The Problem with Star Wars

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

In the post that you quote I specifically state that ANH is successful, the reasons why, and the reasons why RotJ, TPM, and AotC are not as successful as stories.

I know what you said, but I obviously don't agree with it. There is much, much more evidence to support that ALL of the Star Wars films ARE successful as stories. Simply stories? Yep, but stories still. If they weren't successful as stories, no amount of marketing, special effects, or anything that you say Lucas IS competent with would keept the films making as much money as they do. People would NOT keep seeing them.

http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/boxoffice/alltime/

Notice there that that the ONLY Star Wars film to top Episode I is the original. Also, note that Episode II has done better than BOTH Return of the Jedi AND Empire. These movies may not be making as much money as the original, but they're doing a damned good job.

Please, I don't mind having these kinds of discussions (enjoy them, in fact), but at least read the entire post before responding.

New to the internet?

Not sure that I agree with that, but by your rationale, nor can you disprove them. That's why we're having this discussion.

Are you even reading my posts...I said they can't be proved one way or the other!

 

[Storm Raven]

http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/boxoffice/alltime/

Notice there that that the ONLY Star Wars film to top Episode I is the original. Also, note that Episode II has done better than BOTH Return of the Jedi AND Empire. These movies may not be making as much money as the original, but they're doing a damned good job.

Adjust those numbers for inflation, and Episodes I and II fall far behind the original three.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Adjust those numbers for inflation, and Episodes I and II fall far behind the original three.

True, but they'd still be up very high on the list.

Either way, the point still stands that if the stories WEREN'T successful then no amount of other padding could save them. Sure, they aren't the best stories in the world, and the OT is bettter(IMO, too), but they are still successful.

 

[mojo1701]

but they are still successful.

And still good watches.

 

[barsoomcore]

Either way, the point still stands that if the stories WEREN'T successful then no amount of other padding could save them.

How, exactly, does that point stand? Or rather, what is the evidence upon which that point stands?

I would like to see some evidence that movies are unable to succeed if their stories are unsuccessful. You're making a very large assertion there, you need to provide evidence. I honestly think there's a fair amount of evidence that pictures without much story ARE capable of being successful financially, so I'd like to know what you base your assertion on.

But then, I would use Episodes I and II as part of that evidence.

 

[The Serge]

I know what you said, but I obviously don't agree with it. There is much, much more evidence to support that ALL of the Star Wars films ARE successful as stories. Simply stories? Yep, but stories still. If they weren't successful as stories, no amount of marketing, special effects, or anything that you say Lucas IS competent with would keept the films making as much money as they do. People would NOT keep seeing them.

http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/boxoffice/alltime/

Notice there that that the ONLY Star Wars film to top Episode I is the original. Also, note that Episode II has done better than BOTH Return of the Jedi AND Empire. These movies may not be making as much money as the original, but they're doing a damned good job.

As I (and others) have already stated, financial windfall doesn't necessarily translate into a successful film. The money made by SW does not reflect great stories or even great movies. Episode I did well by virtue of its name and association, not by its story, characterizations, dialogue, and so forth. The fall out between Episode I and Episode II was considerable because people were more wary about the hype the second time around. And, let's be honest now, SW has become more about spectacle... People see it because everyone else has seen it, not necessarily because it was a great film.

I'm curious about those numbers... Are they associated with inflation and such?

New to the internet?

Hardly. Have my own website. However, at Dicefreaks, we typically read everyone's posts in their entirety.

Are you even reading my posts...I said they can't be proved one way or the other!

Touche. Still disagree with the suggestion that a position can't be taken.

I think someone else mentioned this earlier, but it bears repeating. The issue here isn't so much that SW have been bad films. It's that they have not been what they could have been because George Lucas doesn't know how to write a cohesive story with decent characterization nor can he direct people with great efficiency. The drama is all there, right below the surface, but Lucas failed in RotJ, TPM, and AotC to bring it to the fore because he's incompetent and inept in those areas.

 

[barsoomcore]

It's a very difficult assertion for you to support (that movies without good stories never succeed financially), AMG, because ANY instance of a movie without a story that is successful financially disproves it, while no number of movies with stories that are successful financially (nor any number of movies without stories that are NOT successful financially) will ever prove it.

So it was kind of unfair of me to ask. But then, you're the one who made the assertion in the first place, so I figure it's your job to support it.

Here are inflation-adjusted figures.

Let us note that Episode I comes in at 19th overall, below the original three. Episode II comes in at 80th overall. So there's certainly evidence for an ongoing decline in the quality of these pictures. I think one could also make a pretty compelling argument that Episode I benefitted from a fantastic amount of demand that had built up over the years, thus inflating its figures by a great degree. It's pretty clear that the kind of audience impact of the original films is not being maintained by the second trilogy.

Let us further note that just below Episode I, at 20th, is Fantasia.

A film noted for many things, but not, perhaps, having an excellent STORY.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

As I (and others) have already stated, financial windfall doesn't necessarily translate into a successful film. The money made by SW does not reflect great stories or even great movies. Episode I did well by virtue of its name and association, not by its story, characterizations, dialogue, and so forth. The fall out between Episode I and Episode II was considerable because people were more wary about the hype the second time around. And, let's be honest now, SW has become more about spectacle... People see it because everyone else has seen it, not necessarily because it was a great film.

But peope aren't going to go see a movie if everyone is coming back saying it sucks. THAT is my point.

I'm curious about those numbers... Are they associated with inflation and such?

I somehow doubt inflation is calculated in with those.

It's that they have not been what they could have been because George Lucas doesn't know how to write a cohesive story with decent characterization nor can he direct people with great efficiency. The drama is all there, right below the surface, but Lucas failed in RotJ, TPM, and AotC to bring it to the fore because he's incompetent and inept in those areas.

But I don't believe he failed at all. And obviously I'm not alone. It seems to me that you're taking the little information we have on things and going straight to the extreme of Lucas being inept and incompetent. If he can't write a cohsive story, it would show in more than just fans complaining. It would show in the amount of money made because people don't go and see it.

Bad movies don't make money. Like it or not, you ARE saying that the movies are bad by saying that Lucas is inept and incompetent in storytelling. If you don't mean to, then its at least strongly implied.

I really think Wombat had a point earlier on. Its not Lucas or any of 'his' movies that are the problem. Its Empire. THAT movie is the oddity among the rest, and it really shows. Sure, its my favorite, but it doesn't mean it isn't vastly different than ALL of the other Star Wars movies. Lucas is telling his story his way because that's the way he wants to tell it(whether we agree with it or not), and Empire really was the anomily among it all.

Maybe we should start blaming Empire instead of Lucas.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

It's a very difficult assertion for you to support (that movies without good stories never succeed financially), AMG, because ANY instance of a movie without a story that is successful financially disproves it, while no number of movies with stories that are successful financially (nor any number of movies without stories that are NOT successful financially) will ever prove it.

So it was kind of unfair of me to ask. But then, you're the one who made the assertion in the first place, so I figure it's your job to support it.

Here are inflation-adjusted figures.

Let us note that Episode I comes in at 19th overall, below the original three. Episode II comes in at 80th overall. So there's certainly evidence for an ongoing decline in the quality of these pictures. I think one could also make a pretty compelling argument that Episode I benefitted from a fantastic amount of demand that had built up over the years, thus inflating its figures by a great degree. It's pretty clear that the kind of audience impact of the original films is not being maintained by the second trilogy.

Let us further note that just below Episode I, at 20th, is Fantasia.

A film noted for many things, but not, perhaps, having an excellent STORY.

And below all of THAT are the Lord of the Rings Movies so NYAH! NYAH NYAH!

Interesting to see those with the numbers adjusted for inflation.

 

[mojo1701]

Ebert's review of Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace.

Ebert's summed up pretty much of what I thought of Episode I and II (although this is his review for Episode I, and his Episode II review is... quite different.)