The Problem with Star Wars

[John Crichton]

* -- Really, the best loved bad guys -- Maul and Fett -- are the ones with the fewest lines. We only love them because they look cool and don't say enough for us to mock them.

Um.

They are most certainly popular but nowhere close to the best loved. That title is and will always belong to Darth Vader. He had lots of lines. They were pretty cool, too.

 

[The Serge]

Because his posts are longer and specific phrases get lost in them.

Hey! Are you suggesting I'm verbose?!

To be honest with you, I hadn't noticed it, but if that's what he said, that's a similarly empty statement.

I disagree with you on this one, Joshua. Success from a monetary perspective is important within the industry. I suppose one could say it's a kind of success. However, I don't believe that monetary success means that one has a successful movie. There are quite a few movies that did not do well financially in the box office that many who have seen them find quite enjoyable and arguably more effective than many blockbusters.

Equating financial success to a film's overall success can be very misleading. Frankly, the two are often mutually exclusive.

 

[The Serge]

Yes... but since that's a tautology, you haven't really said anything at all.

Well, then we should tell that to The Serge, who has said:

...financial windfall doesn't necessarily translate into a successful film.

My point is fairly simple. Yes, it does. If the story was NOT successful, then no amount of merchandising or even the Star Wars name could get the kind of money that the prequels are making.

I disagree with this completely.

There are many films that do well financially that are considered abyssmal by the general public, by fans of the genre, and/or by critics. I already cited Batman and Robin which did not do poorly box office wise.

Spectacle is what draws people to see a film as much as word of mouth. Everyone saw and resaw films like Batman not necessarily because it was a great film, but because it was/became a social icon or social event. The Phantom Menance did well because of the name (Star Wars) and the hype. People saw and resaw it. It was pretty to look at too. And, children wanted to drag their parents out to see it. And fans (including yours truly) saw it at least three times, bringing new people along each time (for me, it was my "Sink the Titanic a Second Time Campaign that motivated me... So far, this campaign has failed). But this does not mean that the film was great or successful as a story. People aren't always interested in reliable stories as much as they are in spectacle. That's why crappy movies continue to be produced.

 

[The Serge]

Hm. I think you guys may be the first ones I've ever heard using incompetence to come in "levels". To most folk, the word implies an absolute, complete lack of ability, not a gradiation. I betcha you'd have bypassed a lot of argument if, rather than claim he's incompetent, you instead said that you felt he was less competent than many other filmmakers.

Actually, I think I was pretty clear as to what I meant when I said he was incompetent and inept. I was specific in pointing out where his ineptidudes could be found: direction, dialogue, ability to capture the human side, and writing the specific story (rather than the broad plot). I said:

I think the problem is we have an inept and incompetent director/writer who dominates the entire process and does not take suggestion well. Lucas is a great conceptualist. He has good ideas and creates great foundations. However, it's his execution that stinks which is why he needs others involved in the creative process.

My emphasis has always been with his ability to direct and write, not with anything else when I talk about his incompetence.

Lucas held Campbell in such high regard that he opened up his studios for the filming of "The Power of Myth". Campbell himself stated that the original movies were a nigh-perfect modern execution of his theories. What more do you want?

And he would largely be right... especially with the initial set up in A New Hope, the startling revelations in The Empire Strikes Back, and with certain elements (primarily the final confrontation between Luke and Darth Vader and the "redemption" of Anakin Skywalker) of Return of the Jedi. This does not necessarily translate into all three being successful films from a writing/directorial perspective. While ANH and TESB work on that level (the latter more so than the former), the same cannot be said of RotJ outside of the examples I cite.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Star Wars has never really been for children. Body limbs get whacked off at least one per film (random arm in Mos Eisley, Luke's hand, Vader's hand, Maul's torso, Anakin's hand... who's next?), never mind the folks who die in a relatively clean fashion in a flaming ball of spaceship or get shot by blasters.

I canNOT disagree with this point more. As far as I can tell, the punk Bros. Grimm decided all by themselves that all the violence, rape, sexual deviancy, and what not that was part of the popular culture of their time in the form of fairy tales was a bad thing for children. Thanks to the age of literacy, and the total lack of an oral tradition in Western culture as of that time, Fairy Tales and Nursery Tales became the, ironically, sanitized Grimm versions.

Since then, the idea that violence is bad for children has just gotten more and more hold on the culture, despite the total absence of reasoning or evidence for it.

In any case, the level of violence in the Star Wars films is STILL less than that of even sanitized nursery rhymes. A scientific study that I cannot find my link to has actually proven that reading nursery rhymes (even more modern ones) provides significantly more acts of violence per minute than the most violent thing on television (the news) and even all but the most violent R-rated movies.

Star Wars is VERY child-friendly.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

How many of these non-fans actually watched the original trilogy? I find it hard to believe that, having seen the original trilogy, there is any opacity in tPM's plot.

Well, all of them. The undergrad in question nearly wet himself in anticipation when I told him I had the trailer. He's a fan without being one of us. Saw the OT on video as a kid, but it was after all the hoopla had died down. Then there's my father, who sat through the OT with me about a thousand times in my youth, is a reasonably sharp fellow, and enjoys the movies tremendously, but he didn't put it together entirely until Palpy's conversation with Anakin in AotC. He thought Palpy "was up to something" in tPM, but didn't think he was Siddious. Remember, in the OT, the Emperor was "the Emperor" NOT "Emperor Palpatine." You only saw that name in the novels and some of the other tie-ins.

A double-bladed lightsaber works, because it can cut at any angle

Which makes it very, very hard to use in real life, because most of those angles are just as dangerous to you as to your opponent, if not more so. It would be too dangerous to use, realistically, and the fact that you can only grip it in the middle takes away the primary advantage of a staff, reach. Every staff technique I've ever seen relies upon grips that are impossible with that beast.

I thought Maul's combination of a staff-fighting type still and Wing Chun was fantastic visually.

It was. And I loved it when I first saw it, but once I took some martial arts it became increasingly irksome. It's not so bad when he was 1-on-1 with one of them, but when he was fighting both jedi, there are too many moments where Ewan McGregor visibly hesitates to wait for Park to get his blade into place and what not. It's just not possible to use that "weapon" efficiently.

Indeed, it made it all the more jarring and silly when Maul died, because he'd been so badass up until he needed to be killed.

Well, sure. He had to be bad-ass to overcome the severe limitations of that weapon. I personally found him to be much more impressive when he was using only one side of the thing. I REALLY wanted to see more of that first fight in the desert with Qui-gon. The use of a single blade with that really long handle was cool. And the additional leverage would be nice.

Similarly, people keep complaining about Dooku's "bent lightsaber." I don't see the problem. It's not like the blade was curved. And there is a precedent for curved handles in swords. Arguably, it merely makes the lightsaber into a one-handed sword instead of it's typical sort of hand-and-a-half usage.

The Star Wars game Knights of the Old Republic II has a villain who uses such an attack, though, and it seemed dramatically viable in the game.

Let me try to explain, though this is difficult without visuals. I've got my lightsaber floating a foot or so from my body. You swing at me. My lightsaber flies into place to deflect your attack. For an instant, our blades are crossed in front of us, a la the old Luke vs Vader duels. Then, the handle of my blade swings towards you and down, using it's point of contact with your blade as a pivot point. If my arm was connected to it, you could kill me instantly, because the entire side of my body is exposed to you with no defense, but since my sword is floating free, I might need to take a step back, but in the meantime my blade has made a full revolution and taken your arm off. Or your head, if I had picked that angle. Even if I had to stay within 12 inches of the lightsaber at all times to maintain control, without an arm attached to it to limit movement, the sword can do all manner of things that make it invincible.

This is why I don't believe in animated swords in D&D, either. It is impossible to defeat them, with any sort of verisimilitude.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Now, his influence by Kurosawa is perhaps more like what you describe, though -- it's mostly been other folks making comparisons other than him. In fact, some people go so far as to say that the first Star Wars is little more than a ripoff of The Hidden Fortress. Which is, if you've seen The Hidden Fortress, completely preposterous. There are a few superficial similarities, but there are some huge differences in terms of plot, character, theme, even and more.

Have you seen the purported early drafts of the script? One of them is practically a transcript of The Hidden Fortress with the droids being Imperial Bureaucrats along for the ride much like the peasants in Kurosawa's film. And c'mon, it's not hard to see that droid-peasant comparison even in the final film, right down to the bickering in the desert. Later drafts sound more like ANH and RotJ smashed into each other, with Wookies in place of Ewoks. Ben's death was actually a relatively late addition to the whole thing, though I don't remember if it was before or after he and Luke switched names.

God, I'm a geek..

 

[Greylock]

My favorite "Hidden Fortress" moment from Star Wars is the medal ceremony at the end. It is a note for note tribute to the same scene from Kurosawa. That little step down Princess Leia makes right before passing out the medals? In "Hidden Fortress" that's the Princess stepping down off a low porch.

 

[Klaus]

I STILL think it was rude not to give Chewbacca a medal!

 

[mojo1701]

Which makes it very, very hard to use in real life, because most of those angles are just as dangerous to you as to your opponent, if not more so. It would be too dangerous to use, realistically, and the fact that you can only grip it in the middle takes away the primary advantage of a staff, reach. Every staff technique I've ever seen relies upon grips that are impossible with that beast.

Which is what made Maul a threat, was that he could not only wield a saber well, but a dual-saber that could, if you didn't have enough skill, could hurt.

Similarly, people keep complaining about Dooku's "bent lightsaber." I don't see the problem. It's not like the blade was curved. And there is a precedent for curved handles in swords. Arguably, it merely makes the lightsaber into a one-handed sword instead of it's typical sort of hand-and-a-half usage.

When I did my Star Wars fanfilm for Grade 12 Communications Tech, the friend that was teaching them swordfighting used this box of sabers a former student had donated to my teacher. He tried different ones (including Qui-Gon's, Maul's, Luke's, and Dooku's). When he did things with Dooku's, he felt weird at first with the bent saber, but as you start doing some more moves (especially complex twirling ones), it really is better.