The Problem with Star Wars

[Rhialto]

So, let me see, judging from the sarcastic tone I detect in my post, you're offended that I consider your arguments poor, and in reality have no desire to learn logical discourse. Thus, you feel that making arguments that others consider poor is a good method of getting your point across. Well, no reason to forcefully disillusion you.

Now, as to your second question, since your arguments constitute part of the discussion, I think I'm well within my rights to comment on their shortcomings. (For example, your argument that Serge cannot say Lucas doesn't know his own limitations as a filmmaker because he doesn't know Lucas personally is 'begging the question' because it works from an unwarranted assumption--that personal knowledge is the only valid method to come to such a conclusion. But as you have no desire to learn how to mount effective arguments, I'll cut this part short.) However, if you want to know if I have anything to add to this discussion as regards Lucas's Star Wars prequels and talent, then truth be told no, but largely because I feel there's little I can add to it, as it is largely futile. Your faith in Lucas seems to border on the religious, and I've little doubt that nothing can dissuade you of it. Thus, trying would be rougly akin to beating air with a baseball bat.

 

[barsoomcore]

None of those are perfect.

Little typo, there. I think you meant "All" instead of "None".

Small errors cause big differences, you know. Always double-check before you post.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

None of those are perfect.

Not even Apocalypse Now...?

For example, your argument that Serge cannot say Lucas doesn't know his own limitations as a filmmaker because he doesn't know Lucas personally is 'begging the question' because it works from an unwarranted assumption--that personal knowledge is the only valid method to come to such a conclusion.

Personal knowledge is not the only way to know things like that, but judging from his movies alone, how can you possible know what Lucas knows of his own talents or faults? Can you give me proof that Lucas doesn't know his own limitations? The movies can support both the point that he DOESN'T know them, and that he does and is trying to work past them.

Your faith in Lucas seems to border on the religious, and I've little doubt that nothing can dissuade you of it.

I love it! No matter how many times I say I agree that Lucas isn't the best, I'm seen as impossibly devoted to Lucas. Is it just because I don't agree? Because from where I'm standing, the arguments against him are just as unfounded. Many of them sound like "He's stupid and I don't like because its not how I wanted it to be and stuff!" to me.

I'm sorry for enjoying Lucas' movies and defending him. I always forget that that's not allowed on the internet.

 

[Rhialto]

I love it! No matter how many times I say I agree that Lucas isn't the best, I'm seen as impossibly devoted to Lucas.

This would be because while you say this repeatedly, it is invariably followed by a dogmatic reitertion of your opinions attacking his critics, suggesting it is essentially a self-serving ploy meant to create an illusion of impartiality, or at least, compromise.

Is it just because I don't agree? Because from where I'm standing, the arguments against him are just as unfounded. Many of them sound like "He's stupid and I don't like because its not how I wanted it to be and stuff!" to me.

I'm sorry for enjoying Lucas' movies and defending him. I always forget that that's not allowed on the internet.

Actually, judging by your tone, it sounds more like YOU are the one demanding that everyone agree with you, since you categorize their criticisms as "unfounded".

Lucas made movies that many people found disappointing. They have given their reasons for finding them disappointing. They are valid reasons. I'd argue they're excellent reasons. You feel otherwise. That's your right. You feel the movies are good. That's your right. I happen to think you're wrong, but this is largely a matter of taste. However, the arguments you mount to support your opinions are poor. They damage your case and make you seem peevish and irrational.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Actually, judging by your tone, it sounds more like YOU are the one demanding that everyone agree with you, since you categorize their criticisms as "unfounded".

Saying that my faith in Lucas borders on religious isn't exactly the best tone either. In fact, its insulting to me. No different than me using the word 'unfounded'. Because, to me, many of the criticisms ARE unfounded. But many doesn't equal all.

However, the arguments you mount to support your opinions are poor. They damage your case and make you seem peevish and irrational.

And the arguments mounted against Lucas haven't been? I may sound irrational, but The Serge has claimed many things that I feel sound irrational and the arguments he mounts to support his opinions are poor.

Validity and strength of arguments for and against these things are just as subjective as whether you liked the movies or not.

You don't have to like how I state my opinions, but you need to accept that there are problems on both sides.

 

[The Serge]

And you know this...how?

He continues to direct and write movies.

I can repeat myself as much as you can. Batman and Robin made money, yes. But it made no where NEAR the kind of money Star Wars did. People don't go and see Batman movies like they do Star Wars movies. Part of that IS because its a cultural phenomenon, but if Lucas is horribly incomptent then the rest of the movie going public wouldn't keep going and seeing it.

My point is that money in and of itself does not dictate success nor should it be perceived as a kind of success. Batman and Robin and scores of other terrible films did well in the box office but are considered unmitigated failures by a fair number of people. Conversely, there are films that most people -- even those of questionable intellect -- would view as good if not excellent films that did not become cultural phenomenons.

And you continue to willfully warp my words with regards to Lucas' incompetence. It's not his ability to market, conceptualize, or drive the film industry that's in question. It's his ability to direct and write.

pquote]Star Wars isn't a cultural phenomenon just because of the spectacle. Do not judge the trilogy by Empire. Empire is the odd one out, and doesn't really fit in with the rest, even if it IS my favorite. The strengths of Empire could not possibly be keeping Star Wars afloat now. The strengths of the originals couldn't be helping to generate the huge income of the prequels if they WERE horribly directed. People wouldn't go and see them IN HUGE NUMBERS.[/quote]
Two things. First, this whole idea that Empire "doesn't fit in with the rest" is not only a cop out on your part, it only supports my point that Lucas -- who had the least to do with that film of all the SW films -- is an incompetent director and writer.

Second, I think it's precisely because of Empire that both ANH and RotJ did so well. The last twenty minutes of that film forced people to go back and watch ANH with a different perspective and provided one of the best cliffhangers in cinema history. Without that film, the franchise would not have done as well as it did (it would still have done well, but not as well). The events in Empire are also what have driven folks to the prequels. After learning tidbits about Vader in ANH (his betrayal of the Jedi order and his "murder" of Anakin Skywalker) and the revelation of precisely who Vader is in Empire, the desire to see how these things panned out is the driving force behind the prequels.

Hype is also a driving factor. Most people with whom I've spoken were likewise expecting the same depth as Empire in the prequels. The nature of the new trilogy implied that kind of depth. Hell, the trailers implied that depth. Lucas failed miserably to produce that, instead focusing and exceling in the technical/action and marketing aspects of the franchise at the expense of story and character. Because he's an incompetent director and writer.

There's your problem right there. Empire is nothing like the rest of the movies, and NONE of them have the same quality of story. You're not going to get that with ANY Star Wars movie. Its odd to say, but Empire Strikes Back could be the 'problem with Star Wars'.

Actually, it's not my problem. It's your problem because you're resorting to a cop out. Empire is the reason why the franchise did as well as it did. It's what solidified the franchise as one of the best trilogies ever.

It's also a cop out because it reveals that you don't have faith in Lucas to create the kind of intensity, character development/progression, story-line, and so forth. You are willing to accept his incompetence in these areas why saying "Oh, others are expecting too much so it's their fault not Lucas' since he clearly can't deliver." If Empire is the "problem with Star Wars" and simultaneously the best part of Star Wars, it reflects that Lucas' relative lack of participation was the best thing for the franchise and a reflection of his incompetence as a director and writer.

And the best directing, storytelling, and action within context aren't going to mitigate everyone wearing what they came to work in. Costumes help the ACTORS get into character more and help the viewers believe the 'reality' of the environment. They are all equally important. Take out one, and it all fails.

I think this is highly debatable and depends upon the movie/performance in question.

Uh-huh. So you're only going to believe what agrees with your point of view?

Are you trying to pull a self-righteous stance here? Really, I could just say that you're doing no different, but I think it goes without saying... Except I just said it. This is a good discussion; don't ruin it by getting petty. I haven't accused you or the others here of wearing blinders or having a childish infatuation with Lucas because I don't believe that you do. Rather I believe that you are supporting a position. I respect that even if I vociferously disagree with it. So, don't prove me wrong by acting like a child with these kinds of statements. They're beneath you.

Yes, people involved in the movies are going to be biased, but the enthusiam these projects are worked on, IN ALL ASPECTS, is beyond simply "I'm doing this because its Star Wars!!" or "Lucas pays me to say good things!".

So you say. I doubt that the case.

And I was referring not to what these people say about LUCAS, but about the movies themselves. Rick McCallum and co are behind these movies just as much as Lucas is. Listen to interviews with EVERYONE on the films, from animators to producers. They all truly believe these are great movies and that Lucas is doing a wonderful job.

Of course, the interviews on these films are not biased in any way and the comments taken should be accepted at face value.

Right.

For all we know, many of them ARE saying to Lucas "Shouldn't you do this instead of that?" and he is listening. We have no proof one way or the other so saying things like "Lucas should get help!" is stupid because he has help. He's not doing all the movies by himself. The people working on these movies have much, much more influence that seems to be assumed by so many. Yes, in the end, its Lucas' decision, and yes, in the end, any problems should be attributed to him. BUT, that doesn't mean he's incompetent. Would so many people be working under him and believe in this project like they do if he is incompetent? SOMEONE would get frustrated and go crazy.

And how do we know that someone hasn't gotten frustrated and left? In a professional environment when you're dealing with contracts, this is possible and likely that folks aren't going to say anything once they leave.

 

[The Serge]

I'm sorry for enjoying Lucas' movies and defending him. I always forget that that's not allowed on the internet.

I find it amusing that you're taking a wounded stance here.

I believe that JD, barscoome, myself and others who've taken the position that Lucas is an imcompetent director and writer have made it very clear that we like the films. I have so many different copies of the original trilogy it's pathetic. I have so many different recordings of the scores it's pathetic. However, this does not mean that I'm blind to Lucas' limitations as a director and writer and that I am ignorant of how much more fulfilling the movies could have been had he recognized his limitations and allowed others to participate in those two essential areas.

 

[Desdichado]

Just because you ignore the reasons given doesn't mean that they don't exist. Neither I nor The Serge has made any unfounded criticism.

You do repeatedly say that you don't think Lucas is perfect, but then you do repeatedly show that you don't actually think any such thing at all.

And you do repeatedly ignore our statements to counter with non sequitars as well.

I'm sorry, AMG, but the guy is right; you aren't even coming close to convincing anyone of anything, or even of explaining yourself very well. And, contrary to your implication, it is not because we're a bunch of hard-assed Lucas-hatin' "Internet guys."

Which you would also know if you actually paid attention to our posts instead of whipping yourself into a religious frenzy whenever someone doubts the holiness of Saint George.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

He continues to direct and write movies.

And that means he doesn't recognize the areas we all agree he needs improvement in? I can't draw hands, but I keep trying. Does that mean I don't know that I can't draw hands and should just give up and let someone else do it?

My point is that money in and of itself does not dictate success nor should it be perceived as a kind of success.

You know, if you just said bad and good instead of successful it'd be easy. Money DOES measure success, like it or not. For movies, these days at least, successful means they make money. So...yes, money does dictate whether or not a movie is successful. In fact, its the only objective way to measure success.

Two things. First, this whole idea that Empire "doesn't fit in with the rest" is not only a cop out on your part, it only supports my point that Lucas -- who had the least to do with that film of all the SW films -- is an incompetent director and writer.

Why is it a cop out? Honestly, its true. Empire doesn't fit in with the rest. But it doesn't mean that Lucas is incompetent as a director or writer. It can say, though, that Irvin Kershner is a better director than Lucas. I honestly believe Kershner is better, but that's opinion in the end, too.

Second, I think it's precisely because of Empire that both ANH and RotJ did so well. The last twenty minutes of that film forced people to go back and watch ANH with a different perspective and provided one of the best cliffhangers in cinema history. Without that film, the franchise would not have done as well as it did (it would still have done well, but not as well).

Damn right. I won't argue that one bit. A New Hope really created the craze but Empire just sent it to an insanely new level.

Hype is also a driving factor. Most people with whom I've spoken were likewise expecting the same depth as Empire in the prequels. The nature of the new trilogy implied that kind of depth. Hell, the trailers implied that depth. Lucas failed miserably to produce that, instead focusing and exceling in the technical/action and marketing aspects of the franchise at the expense of story and character. Because he's an incompetent director and writer.

The point where we disagree here. I wouldn't say he failed miserably at all. While he may not have had the success that Empire did, Jedi didn't even have that. The debth that Empire has is just plain unique, and short of bringing back Kershner with a similar story, we're not ever going to get anything like that. But that doesn't mean I don't love the other movies.

Actually, it's not my problem. It's your problem because you're resorting to a cop out. Empire is the reason why the franchise did as well as it did. It's what solidified the franchise as one of the best trilogies ever.

Its not a cop out to say Empire is the odd one among the movies. Its true. It IS the one that doesn't really fit in with the rest. But its also one of the very few sequels to live up to and surpass the first movie in its series. You're damn right it solidified Star Wars to what it is, but that still doesn't mean its not the odd one of the group.

It's also a cop out because it reveals that you don't have faith in Lucas to create the kind of intensity, character development/progression, story-line, and so forth. You are willing to accept his incompetence in these areas why saying "Oh, others are expecting too much so it's their fault not Lucas' since he clearly can't deliver." If Empire is the "problem with Star Wars" and simultaneously the best part of Star Wars, it reflects that Lucas' relative lack of participation was the best thing for the franchise and a reflection of his incompetence as a director and writer.

Is it so hard to believe that I love all of the movies despite how different Empire is from the rest? Its not that I accept less than Lucas beacuse he's incompetent. When I sit and watch movies I don't even think about things like that. I just get caught up in them and don't notice the problems.

Empire is my favorite movie overall, but I enjoy Luke vs. Vader round II in Jedi better. Not for the fight as much as for the banter in the fight. Sure, it isn't "I am your father", but its good. The trench run alone in A New Hope is better than the Battle of Hoth from Empire, IMO. Etc, etc. There are many parts of ALL of the movies I find better than parts of Empire, but Empire is my overall favorite.

Of course, in the end, it all is opinion. If you can't believe I don't lower my expectations to watch the non-Empire Star Wars movies, then so be it. There's no way I can change how you think.

I think this is highly debatable and depends upon the movie/performance in question.

To a point, at least, but there is a reason every single movie has an art/set/costume department.

Are you trying to pull a self-righteous stance here? Really, I could just say that you're doing no different, but I think it goes without saying... Except I just said it. This is a good discussion; don't ruin it by getting petty. I haven't accused you or the others here of wearing blinders or having a childish infatuation with Lucas because I don't believe that you do. Rather I believe that you are supporting a position. I respect that even if I vociferously disagree with it. So, don't prove me wrong by acting like a child with these kinds of statements. They're beneath you.

I apologize for that, but there's been at least two people who have accused me of such things. If that annoyance seeps into other discussions, I apologize.

Of course, the interviews on these films are not biased in any way and the comments taken should be accepted at face value.

Right.

Oh, they are biased, but doesn't that also mean that ANYONE Lucas pulls in will be biased? So really...there's nothing that can be done.

And how do we know that someone hasn't gotten frustrated and left? In a professional environment when you're dealing with contracts, this is possible and likely that folks aren't going to say anything once they leave.

True, but stop sounding rational, this is the internet.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I'm sorry, AMG, but the guy is right; you aren't even coming close to convincing anyone of anything, or even of explaining yourself very well. And, contrary to your implication, it is not because we're a bunch of hard-assed Lucas-hatin' "Internet guys."

Well, J-Dawg, your little group isn't exactly convicing myself and the others who don't agree with you. So nyah, you hard-assed, Lucas-hatin' "Internet guys!"

Which you would also know if you actually paid attention to our posts instead of whipping yourself into a religious frenzy whenever someone doubts the holiness of Saint George.

I thought he was a God, not a Saint? Jeez, you people should at LEAST be consistent.