The Pros and Cons of Guild Membership (Help wanted)

[Mistah J]

Greetings, here is the deal:

I am planning a new campaign to lead. It is a city-based game centred on thieves guilds and other criminal organizations. The PCs are all novice members of a particular guild and the story will involve planned capers, rival guilds, rival guild-members, and of course - the law.

I have decided that there are 4 main guilds in this city and that I will let the party choose to which one they belong. To make it a little interesting, I've also decided that each guild gives the PCs a bonus and a drawback. I'm looking for some advice on the finishing touches.

Here is what I have:

Guild A: A street gang of thieves, pick-pockets and urchins.
Pro: Whenever a member uses the Aid Another action to help a second member, the bonus doubles.
Con: All members have a distinct 'gang-sign' tattoo somewhere visible (back of the hand, the neck). It is recognizable to lawful and authority types and makes their initial attitude toward members unfriendly.

Guild B: A drug ring that deals not only in narcotics but also illegal substances such as poison and nefarious alchemical items.
Pro: Members get the poison use ability.
Con: Loyalty to the guild is enforced by drugs. All members suffer an addiction.

Guild C: An organization that started as a union of dockworkers but has grown corrupt. Back room deals, bribes and extortion, shady politicians and the like.
Pro: Each member gets one extra contact or favour they can call (using the boon system from the Game Mastery guide and the contact system from 3.5).
Con: Every month, each member must pay 'union dues' - they have to give some amount of gold to remain in good standing.

Guild D: A ring of smugglers and black marketeers who focus on contraband items, tax and tariff evasion, creative accounting, and illegal shipping. They also have a niche in dealing with antiquities and 'dark magic' magic items.
Pro: In the city, members have an 85% chance to find the magic item they are looking for (instead of the regular 75%).
Con: ?????

So, my first question is: what kind of a Con can I use for the last guild? Any and all brainstorming ideas are welcome. My second question is more general: Do any of these Pros or Cons stick out to you as an obvious front-runner? Is one stronger than the rest? Or maybe one is clearly too weak or disadvantageous to be chosen?

Thanks for your help - Insight is always appreciated

 

[RithTheAwakener]

How about the Con being required to wear a guild ring/other item that is cursed, which allows the guild leaders to find the wearers location via a Locate Person spell? This would deter lower ranking members from running off with any expensive merchandise, and give the player(s) a "big brother is watching" feeling at all times!

 

[tlantl]

okay the con for C is usually a guild requirement as it is. all guilds should require that their members pay a tithe to keep the guild in business. perhaps they would need to pay this money to their contacts to keep them from turning on them. the cost could be minimal or exorbitant depending upon how much of a disadvantage the penalty is supposed to be.

The pro for D is meaningless as the benefit is only useful once in a while. The players should be able to use the benefit on a regular basis. Perhaps a +10% to the value of found goods when selling them, or something like this.

Maybe the con for D could be that the local merchants guild is actively looking for these scoundrels and have put out a kill on sight order.

The tattoo for group A will have to be a secret sign that only the group knows about if is to be displayed publicly. If the authorities know about it, the thieves will never get anything done since they will be under the watchful eye of someone all the time. If I know you are a thief then I can stop you from stealing. This might be better if the gang is a bunch of dangerous thugs that want people to give them space to do their thing, rather than sneaks that try to stay out of sight while they are working.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

One thing I wonder about Guild A's tattoo is what's to stop them from simply putting gloves/a scarf/facepaint over it? Perhaps covering it is forbidden by the guild even if such would inconvenience you?

 

[Mistah J]

One thing I wonder about Guild A's tattoo is what's to stop them from simply putting gloves/a scarf/facepaint over it? Perhaps covering it is forbidden by the guild even if such would inconvenience you?

A good point! I was thinking of it earlier and decided that a Disguise check [with make-up] or a sleight of hand check [with clothes] vs. a casual Spot check would be acceptable. Maybe a search check if they come under close scrutiny.

Having to do this to try and remain anonymous is a disadvantage itself and yes, I would expect a gang member who continuously hides their affiliation with the gang would raise a few eyebrows among the leaders (especially in a gang that adheres to the principal of fraternity so strongly its members all get matching tats.)

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Guild D - possible Cons - Enemy. Either a rival group of smugglers or a lawful who has the hots for puttin' down the guild.

Owes Favors. Every month the group has to do some smuggling for another organization, provide muscle, or other service.

Alternate Pro - D Group may 'borrow' a magic item, paying its full value, but getting 75% of that price back when the item is returned, minus fees for any expended charges.

All - Safe House, place to hide when on the run.

The Auld Grump

 

[Steel_Wind]

I think your ideas (and the Auld Grump's) are just AOK, fine -- if not great. I would point out, however, that the use of the term "Guild" brings with it a whole lot of baggage that in my experience you should avoid like the plague.

My problem with the term "Thieves' Guild" as it has been used over the past 35+ years is that it turns what ought to be a small, focussed and specific group into this monolithic, city-wide (if not globe spanning) organized crime syndicate that feels contrived, cookie-cutterish and wholly without a personality or a soul.

Every "Thieves Guild" ends up being like the next. Suddenly, we are all caught playing in Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar (from whence the entire idea of the Thieves Guild was derived.) It's a cool plot device -- but it has become far less cool over time. It has been overused to the point where it is a zombie, shuffling around long past its useful shelf life.

Your various crime groups as you have presented them feel like rival "gangs" and this is VERY good and is the preferred way to go. Thumbs up.

For reasons of clarity while communicating on a message forum, it's fine to use the term "guild"; but in play, I would avoid using that term -- even once -- like the Ebola virus it is. It just imports so many preconceptions and sameness, it's a disaster and undermines all your hard work and the verisimilitude of your setting.

Call them "gangs" and all will be well.

__________________________________________

If I had a gloss on your idea, it would be to root them less in the type of crimes in which they are involved, and more on the area of town in which they operate, and FAR more on the ethnicity and race from which each gang's membership is drawn. There should be a close family connection, shared racial heritage, cultural ethnicity, religion or some childhood neighbourhood ties that are being required to even join the ranks of most gangs.

Criminals, after all, are criminals; they are inherently untrustworthy and they know it. Criminals do not trust other criminals. What they trust is something OTHER than the criminal background of their associates. It is that "something else" (whatever it is) which is the most important thing to them. That way, the criminal is not trusting a gang member because he is a criminal, but IN SPITE OF THE FACT that he is a criminal because of this other, superceding, more important reason that fuels their group identity. That "something else" is what breeds and sustains group loyalty.

For example, unless you are born and raised as a Sicilian or Sicilian American (or Sicilian Canadian, as the case may be) you will never EVER be a made guy in the Mob. (To be sure, there is more to it than that, but that shared cultural ethnicity is a "no exceptions" requirement). Irish and Jewish gangs have had the same history in the past (and present) in America, too. This ties the gang to something exclusive and which integrates into the cultural identity and family relations of the gang member.

If you look at other successful gangs in America which have a more open structure to them, even then, there is something which binds them all together in spite of their being criminals -- because they have a shared experience and identity. For example, while the Hells Angels tends to focus far less on ethnicity, you have to adopt the "biker lifestyle" and be a hang around before you can ever be considered for full-patch membership in the HA or most other MCs.

You have to be one of them to earn their trust; "them" means more than being a criminal -- much more.

IMO, focus far less on the types of crime and focus far more on the types of members who participate in those crimes. Do that and your gangs will have a stronger feel of plausibility in your campaign. Now, it may well be that the types of crimes committed by those particular gangs will end up just as you describe them, but the focus should be on the individuals' shared heritage or interests, and far less upon the crimes they do.

While this may limit and foreclose membership in most of these gangs to your player characters, that's not necessarily a bad thing as it lends an air of reality to the rest of the "closed" gangs that you do present. When it feels more real -- that's never, ever, a bad thing.

In short -- break free of Leiber's Thieves Guild and instead root your criminal underbelly in the shared heritage of the gangs' membership for a more "real" feel to your campaign.

I'm sure you have watched The Sopranos, but if you have not ALSO watched FX's "Sons of Anarchy", I strongly suggest that you do. The series is about a Motorcycle Club, clearly based upon the Hells Angels. Yes, it's TOTALLY a soap opera where the viewership is assumed to be men, not women.

But the best thing about the series is that it really does show why people of divergent backgrounds can come to trust one another in a MC and why they will not turn on one another (except when they do!!). That's what a REAL "Thieves Guild" should be like, imo.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I think your ideas (and the Auld Grump's) are just AOK, fine -- if not great. I would point out, however, that the use of the term "Guild" brings with it a whole lot of baggage that in my experience you should avoid like the plague.

My problem with the term "Thieves' Guild" as it has been used over the past 35+ years is that it turns what ought to be a small, focussed and specific group into this monolithic, city-wide (if not globe spanning) organized crime syndicate that feels contrived, cookie-cutterish and wholly without a personality or a soul.

Every "Thieves Guild" ends up being like the next. Suddenly, we are all caught playing in Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar (from whence the entire idea of the Thieves Guild was derived.) It's a cool plot device -- but it has become far less cool over time. It has been overused to the point where it is a zombie, shuffling around long past its useful shelf life.

Your various crime groups as you have presented them feel like rival "gangs" and this is VERY good and is the preferred way to go. Thumbs up.

For reasons of clarity while communicating on a message forum, it's fine to use the term "guild"; but in play, I would avoid using that term -- even once -- like the Ebola virus it is. It just imports so many preconceptions and sameness, it's a disaster and undermines all your hard work and the verisimilitude of your setting.

Call them "gangs" and all will be well.

__________________________________________

If I had a gloss on your idea, it would be to root them less in the type of crimes in which they are involved, and more on the area of town in which they operate, and FAR more on the ethnicity and race from which each gang's membership is drawn. There should be a close family connection, shared racial heritage, cultural ethnicity, religion or some childhood neighbourhood ties that are being required to even join the ranks of most gangs.

Criminals, after all, are criminals; they are inherently untrustworthy and they know it. Criminals do not trust other criminals. What they trust is something OTHER than the criminal background of their associates. It is that "something else" (whatever it is) which is the most important thing to them. That way, the criminal is not trusting a gang member because he is a criminal, but IN SPITE OF THE FACT that he is a criminal because of this other, superceding, more important reason that fuels their group identity. That "something else" is what breeds and sustains group loyalty.

For example, unless you are born and raised as a Sicilian or Sicilian American (or Sicilian Canadian, as the case may be) you will never EVER be a made guy in the Mob. (To be sure, there is more to it than that, but that shared cultural ethnicity is a "no exceptions" requirement). Irish and Jewish gangs have had the same history in the past (and present) in America, too. This ties the gang to something exclusive and which integrates into the cultural identity and family relations of the gang member.

If you look at other successful gangs in America which have a more open structure to them, even then, there is something which binds them all together in spite of their being criminals -- because they have a shared experience and identity. For example, while the Hells Angels tends to focus far less on ethnicity, you have to adopt the "biker lifestyle" and be a hang around before you can ever be considered for full-patch membership in the HA or most other MCs.

You have to be one of them to earn their trust; "them" means more than being a criminal -- much more.

IMO, focus far less on the types of crime and focus far more on the types of members who participate in those crimes. Do that and your gangs will have a stronger feel of plausibility in your campaign. Now, it may well be that the types of crimes committed by those particular gangs will end up just as you describe them, but the focus should be on the individuals' shared heritage or interests, and far less upon the crimes they do.

While this may limit and foreclose membership in most of these gangs to your player characters, that's not necessarily a bad thing as it lends an air of reality to the rest of the "closed" gangs that you do present. When it feels more real -- that's never, ever, a bad thing.

In short -- break free of Leiber's Thieves Guild and instead root your criminal underbelly in the shared heritage of the gangs' membership for a more "real" feel to your campaign.

I'm sure you have watched The Sopranos, but if you have not ALSO watched FX's "Sons of Anarchy", I strongly suggest that you do. The series is about a Motorcycle Club, clearly based upon the Hells Angels. Yes, it's TOTALLY a soap opera where the viewership is assumed to be men, not women.

But the best thing about the series is that it really does show why people of divergent backgrounds can come to trust one another in a MC and why they will not turn on one another (except when they do!!). That's what a REAL "Thieves Guild" should be like, imo.

I have generally pictured the 'Thieves' Guild' to be an outside label. In reality organization is much looser, with some warring being inevitable.

The docks might belong to the Ponzo family, while the slums are under the Gable St. Runners gang, who are in a a long standing turf war with the Eastside Gang.

The Ganafons provide muscle to any who are willing to pay for it, but make most of their money in prostitution, their brothels in turn buying liquor and drugs from the Skeeves, who also double in small but valuable item smuggling and as an illicit communication channel, controlling the sewers with their were rats.

Bulk smuggling by sea is handled by the Cantos, who are related to the Ponzos, who are also cousins of the Carter gang, who are both an established Teamsters Guild and handle bulk overland smuggling....

The Ganafons enforce an uneasy truce among the more powerful gangs, but allows the Runners and the Eastsiders to waste their energy and lives fighting against each other, sometimes manufacturing 'incidents' to keep those two gangs at each other's throats. If the Canto, Ponzos, and Carters were to attempt to overthrow the Ganafons they could do so easily, but see no profit in doing so; instead they remain clients of the Ganafons hired goons, and as some of the best customers of the Ganafon brothels.

Everyone uses the Skeeves, but no one trusts them, even though they have always kept their words, so far....

Welcome to the city of Blythe, called Blight by those who live beneath its smokes.

The Auld Grump

 

[Mistah J]

Truly excellent stuff

Wow. Thanks so much for that. I agree with you here 100%. I called them 'thieves guilds' in my original post here on the boards in order to convey what I was talking about quickly to everyone. My plan for these uh.. let's go with criminal groups.. has always been like what you mention - smaller bands that, at most, control a distinct section of one city - they are certainly not world-spanning.

Your right too about less focus on their particular brand of crime and more on their particular brand of identity. I didn't want to write out every last thought I've come up with for each guild because a) I didn't want to bore people with unneeded details and b) I didn't want my request for a specific mechanic (the Con of Group D) to get lost in a sea of text.

However, it is interesting because I was discussing the matter with my wife the other night and she pointed out the same thing: Groups A, B, and C have identities that are more defined - one is an inner city gang of street toughs and urchins, one is a group of foreigners, and the other started as a simple union of labourers and workers. It is easy to see how members of these groups can identify with themselves and what kind of community they would create.

The last is so far just a group of... shady merchants? Black market specialists? I think the reason I'm drawing a blank on the mechanics of this guild is because they aren't as fleshed out.

So please, help me flesh them out! I was thinking that rather than focus on a 'thieves guild' mentality - Group D might be more like a secret organization. Stuff like, if you know the right pass phrase or hand gesture, the merchant your talking too might just have what your looking for - even if its illegal to sell or own. Rather than be a tightly knit group like the others, this one works on the basis of cells and anonymity - one member may only know and deal with a few others and one boss. That boss might control a few groups but they have a boss too and so forth - up the pyramid until you reach the mysterious cabal or shadowy manipulator at the top - if there even is one.

Anyway, any thoughts on how to give Group D some more identity would be very helpful. I feel once I have a better understanding of who they are, a drawback to being a member should emerge. I'm still interested in your ideas on those too though

Also,

...while the slums are under the Gable St. Runners

Group A is the Coal St. Runners - scary how the same ideas circulate between like minds!

 

[paradox42]

It's not entirely the same thing, but have you seen this thread?