D&D 4E The Quadratic Problem—Speculations on 4e

mmadsen said:
Absolutely. As I said earlier:
I think we need to ask ourselves whether we should be comparing power to level, when the real issue is power as a function of time -- or, more accurately, encounters defeated.​


I don't believe simply changing the rate of advancement is the solution. (As distinguished from a solution.)

I am of course familiar with Lanchester's Law, and had intended to expand my thoughts to that next, but it is a different "quadratic problem" than we are discussing here.​
 

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babomb said:
Not to put to fine a point on it, but I'm not sure I'd call high school–level mathematics a niche.
Relative to the topic at hand it is.

I fully understand the difference in the terms. But in regard to a well explained idea the obssession with terminology correction added no actual value but ended up costing the quality of discussion significantly. Anyone who understands the difference in the actual terms would be far more than easily able to understand the point that was being made.
This is a D&D thread. The idea was understood, let's talk about D&D.
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
I don't believe simply changing the rate of advancement is the solution. (As distinguished from a solution.)
I think it is a separate issue.
The contrast between the power of Level 5 and the power of Level 12 is the same issue regardless of how long it takes you to get from Level 5 to Level 12.
Rate of advancement is also a good topic. But it is a different topic.
 

BryonD said:
I think it is a separate issue.
The contrast between the power of Level 5 and the power of Level 12 is the same issue regardless of how long it takes you to get from Level 5 to Level 12.
Rate of advancement is also a good topic. But it is a different topic.

Slowing down the rate of advancement is like trying to convince football fans of the merits of a brilliant, hard-fought soccer match.

God forbid your players are NBA fans, relatively speaking.
 

I think to calculate the power curve you need to have a sequence of benchmark monsters. Or at least bundles of statistics (attack bonus, AC, damage per hit and hit points would be the minimum) that can stand in for a fully statted-out monster.

You'd want it to work out that 2 of monster A would be a match (50% chance of victory) against monster B, and 2 of monster B would be a match for monster C, and so on. You want to have some kind of linear progression on all 4 of the basic stats- attack, AC, damage and hp- so that the result is a "middle of the road" kind of creature.

Now is the tricky part: you have to decide what CRs to assign to these monsters. Suppose monster A is assigned a CR of 1. Then suppose that you decide that doubling the number of monsters increases the CR by +2. Then monster B has a CR of 3, monster C has a CR of 5, and so on. I'm handwaving some technical aspects of EL, but I think this is basically how 3.5 assigns CRs to critters. It's an exponential progression.

Here's another tricky part: ensuring that a party of PCs increase in power at the same rate as monsters. A party of 1st level characters shouldn't have much problem with monster A, and a party of 5th level characters should make similarly fast work with monster C. So the power curve of PCs is the same as that of monsters; it is also exponential.

Now how does this work, exactly? How do we have it so that monster B is a match for two of monster A? Let's take attack, hit points and AC off the table for the moment, and pretend the only difference lies in damage.

Suppose that if monster B were dazed it would take monster A exactly 8 rounds to kill it. Then two copies of monster A would take exactly 4 rounds. If monster B were fighting back and if the battle is going to be a tie, it would have to take monster B exactly 2 rounds to kill monster A. So B has to be four times as strong as A. (This is just Lanchester's square law, and it assumes that B is dividing its attacks equally between its two opponents.)

A similar analysis shows that it would also work if B had four times the hit points as A. If B had twice the hit points and did twice the damage, then that would also work. Hit points and damage have a nice property; if we know that C has twice as many hit points as B, and B has twice as many hit points as A, then we know that C has four times as many hit points as A. And similarly for damage. The knowledge is transitive.

If you add AC and attack rolls into the mix, then the numbers are also transitive, at least sometimes, and as long as the numbers aren't too extreme. Here's an example: If monster A hits monster B 30% of the time (and is hit 60% of the time), and monster B hits monster C 30% of the time (and is hit 60% of the time), how often does monster A hit monster C? (and how often is it hit?)

Let's make up some numbers. Monster A has an AC of 15 and an attack of +4. Monster B has an AC of 19 and an attack of +6. Monster C has an AC of 21 and an attack of +10. So monster A needs a 17 to hit monster C (20% chance) and is hit on a 5 or better (80% chance). So the hit ratios multiply out: A gets hit twice for every hit it gets on B, and B gets hit twice for every hit it gets on C. And it turns out that A gets hit four times for every hit it gets on C.

And although the percentage chance of hitting can never drop below 5% or go higher than 95%, there are mechanisms that can compensate. Maybe the big monsters get a little DR or fast healing; or perhaps they can use power attack (or cleave, or some kind of area attack) against weaker opponents. I don't see a way to make the numbers come out perfectly, but as an approximation it should be OK.

What's the point? Just this: its not too hard to achieve an exponential power curve in monsters by simultaneously increasing hit points, AC, damage per attack and hit points. And the game is designed to increase the power of a party at the same rate that monsters increase their power.

Now if there were only these 4 variables the game could be broken by exploiting a few loopholes. For instance, if you could increase your AC a few points, you would reap a disproportionate advantage over weaker opponents. If you could get a +5 AC advantage, then instead of hitting you 30% of the time, opponents would hit you only 5% of the time. It would be like increasing your hit points by a factor of 6. But that is why there are touch attacks, area attacks, and attacks that have nothing to do with hit points and AC; you can be an invincible tank, but if your will save is too low you could still get confused or dominated. Or if you have that covered, then direct damage (fireballs and the like) might be your Achilles heel. And while you might be able to afford items that give you a +5 AC advantage over what the game assumes you'll have, you won't be able to get a similar advantage against all vulnerabilities.

Anyway. I contend that the power curve is not quadratic; I say it is really exponential. I think (though I haven't argued this) that at high levels it is spellcasting that enables a party to increase its power fast enough to allow it to keep up with the monsters. Which means that the power curve is steeper for spellcasters than for fighter types.
 
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Cheiromancer said:
Which means that the power curve is steeper for spellcasters than for fighter types.

I don't think you'll find many folks opposing that point of view.

The rest of your post is excellent but I wonder if there is room within the play space to continue increasing power at that rate.
 

I think it's beyond dispute that the game is designed to have an exponential (2x) power progression; that's what the EL system says.

For "brutes" like Fighters, power is a function of four things: to-hit probability, damage, avoid-hit probability, and hit points.

Without better equipment, a Fighter improves his to-hit probability by a factor of approximately 1.1, from level to level. It depends on the target, but if he had a 50-percent chance of hitting, he will have a 55-percent chance of hitting after adding a level. His damage likely won't increase at all (factor of 1.0). His probability of avoiding a hit also won't increase at all (factor of 1.0). His hit points, on the other hand, will increase dramatically at lower levels, then slowly at higher levels. That is, hit points increase linearly, but levels imply an exponential increase. Hit points improve by a factor of 2, 1.5, 1.33, 1.2, and so on, when they should just keep doubling -- if our goal is to maintain an exponential increase in power, and the other factors aren't already increasing at an exponential rate.

Of course, any combination of factors multiplying out to 2.0 meets our goal, so we could simply double hit points and improve nothing else per level, or improve all four qualities by a factor of 1.2 per level, or double damage per level and improve nothing else, or improve to-hit (BAB) and avoid-hit (AC) probabilities by a factor of 1.4 per level (+4 or so) and improve nothing else, or...
 
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Cheiromancer said:
But that is why there are touch attacks, area attacks, and attacks that have nothing to do with hit points and AC; you can be an invincible tank, but if your will save is too low you could still get confused or dominated. Or if you have that covered, then direct damage (fireballs and the like) might be your Achilles heel. And while you might be able to afford items that give you a +5 AC advantage over what the game assumes you'll have, you won't be able to get a similar advantage against all vulnerabilities.
This is an excellent point that many game designers overlook. Your offensive power is largely a function of your best attack, while your defensive power is a function of your worst defense -- because you only get to choose one of your attacks to use (at a time), and you do not get to choose which defense to use.
 

OK, how about we take the Ogre as our benchmark CR 3 brute.

Attack: +8, damage: 16 (ranged 9), AC: 16, hp: 29.

Actually, let's tweak it a trifle so that the numbers are more regular (I'd like the chance of it hitting itself to be 50%, if possible, and the hit points to be a multiple of its average damage). Would this be a CR 4?

Ogre4: Attack: +8, damage: 16 (ranged 8), AC: 19, hp: 32.

Is there a plausible build for a 4th level fighter that would beat this 50% of the time? Assuming simultaneous initiative, average damage, etc.? I'm including the ranged attack (it's a javelin) in the stats, under the assumption that a fighter could negate the face to face advantage somehow (a fast archer, say) and thus reduce the ogre's effective power by 50%.

[sblock=math error!]Then let's see: at 20th level the fighter would have to be improved enough to handle an Ogre20; or 4 Ogre16's. An Ogre16 is 12 doublings of an Ogre4. Assuming the self-hit percentages provide the base, a "doubling" in AC (or attack) will be +5. Something like this might work:

Ogre16: Attack: +23, damage 128 (ranged 64), AC 34, hp: 256

edit: because of Lanchester's Square Law, a +2 CR means it has to increase its power fourfold. This critter is only an Ogre10! And actually a +4 to attack isn't quite a doubling- so it is not even that. On the other hand, an Ogre10 is supposed to be a moderate challenge to a 10th level party, not a 10th level character. You'd only need an Ogre6 to moderately challenge a 10th level character.[/sblock]
Can the 4th level fighter above be advanced to a 20th level fighter who has a 50/50 chance against four of these Ogre16's? Or at least have the same percentage chance as he had against the Ogre4 when he was 4th level. Insofar as these are realistic characters it confirms the exponential power curve... at least for fighters.

edit: Actually, I'm not sure about the OgreX numbers. The AC and increase in attack bonuses are really problematic; it'd be easy to say that the "doubling" should be +6 or +7 instead of +5. The weighting between factors is also a big assumption (I assume equal weights between the four factors). If anyone has more plausible numbers, I'd be happy to hear about it!
 
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Cheiromancer said:
Ogre4: Attack: +8, damage: 16 (ranged 8), AC: 19, hp: 32.

Is there a plausible build for a 4th level fighter that would beat this 50% of the time?

For a 50/50, he should basically have the same set of "brute" stats.

At 4th level, he'll easily hit the +8 attack (BAB, STR, and WF), the AC19, and the 32 hit points.

Averaging 16 damage per hit will be tough.

However:

It's worth noting that the "typical" encounter for the party in 4e is going to be a 1:1 matchup, at least in terms of force sizes. They want more combatants.

I can't possibly imagine that WOTC intends for every fight to be a 50/50 coin flip, so it's safe to assume that an Ogre4 isn't meant to "equal" a Character4. He'll be "exponentially" weaker, so as to make for a "typical" ("tough but reasonable") encounter. So it may well be that the Ogre4 is best compared to a Character6 or Character8.

EDIT: To put that another way, a Character whose power is equal to an Ogre4 won't be 4th level. He might be as low as 1st level. And if you throw five Ogre4s at the typical 4e party of five, they will have to be more powerful than the Ogre4 to keep this from being a 50/50 coin flip.

... You don't suppose that WOTC intends every typical encounter to have the intensity of the current "difficult" 50/50 encounter??? :eek:

EDIT2: If "4th is the new 1st" is true, then a 1st level 4e Fighter ("brute") has a 50/50 shot against your Ogre4. Now try to make those hit, AC, damage, and hp numbers work out. The game is unrecognizable, to me.
 
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